Lock Her Up

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flash2015
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Re: Lock Her Up

#21 Post by flash2015 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:54 pm

ND wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:01 pm
Let's dissect this.
1. His crowd probably was the biggest ever. Perhaps not in person on the national mall, but when you factor in streaming services.. yes it was. Like, I was planning on going, but it was raining and I didn't want to drive to D.C. so I livestreamed it. So, yeah he is telling the truth on that point.
But that is not what he said or meant. You can see that he explicitly meant the in person crowd size because of the way Sean Spicer defended it:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... trics-don/

Snopes goes into more detail explaining TV audiences were less than Obama's and there is no evidence that streaming numbers were higher:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump ... iewership/

I don't understand - why would you even try and defend this lie as it is so blatant? At least Octavious will accept that sometimes Trump lies like this, but he argues that what he lies about isn't important. Why is holding onto this obvious lie so important to you?
2. Not sure about the muslims in NJ cheering during 9/11. It's possible because I do remember when I was young hearing something about that. Not sure, so that's a 50/50 I think. If he is lying it's not intentional. He probably just mixed up where they were cheering because there is documented evidence that some people in the Middle East did cheer the attacks. I remember that footage for sure.
Throughout the campaign a big theme of his campaign was to demonize immigrants and demonize muslims. There is a **big difference** between saying some people in Palestine cheered 9/11 and muslims in NJ cheered 9/11 from the rooftops. In the first case, we know many people overseas don't like the US so whilst it is sad it isn't a surprise that some people may have cheered it (especially since the US is a strong supporter of Israel). In the second case, Trump is claiming that Muslims (many being US citizens) are largely all traitors. That is quite a nasty and very divisive thing to say, especially without a shred of evidence. Given how it was consistent with his campaign, I would argue he knew exactly what he was doing.
3. Your last point isn't about a 'lie' it's about President's entering the fray. Well, that has always happened. In a modern context it started with Obama who was an extreme partisan that routinely insulted and demeaned Republicans. Obama was way worse then Trump in this regard.
Can you provide some examples on how Obama was worse than Trump? If anything Obama's problem was that he was too idealistic, he believed that if everyone sat around the circle and sang kumbaya he could solve problems when others in the past failed. He was wrong.
4. Conspiracy theories? Not sure where you are going with that one.
Where have you been? He claimed that Democrats were artificially inflating the Puerto Rico death toll to make him look bad. He said that China created the Global Warming hoax to attack US competitiveness. He claimed that democrats were trying to steal the election in Florida to try to disrupt vote counting (he also claimed voters were wearing disguises). Ted Cruz's father was involved in JFK's killing. Several million illegal votes were cast in the 2016 election. Obama's birth certificate, Vince Foster's death. And this is just off the top of my head.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but democracy doesn't function if we can't at least agree on what reality is.

Octavious
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Re: Lock Her Up

#22 Post by Octavious » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:30 am

flash2015 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:54 pm
I don't understand - why would you even try and defend this lie as it is so blatant? At least Octavious will accept that sometimes Trump lies like this, but he argues that what he lies about isn't important. Why is holding onto this obvious lie so important to you?
Not really. Some things Trump lies about are not important to anyone. A lot of the things he lies about are important to people, but crucially they are important to people who are not important to Trump. To the people who are important to Trump he rarely, if ever, tells a lie. Or at least something they'd interpret as a lie.

That's what Trump is really good at. He knows, better than the vast majority of his rivals, what people really care about. He uses that to appeal to his supporters, whose experience of Trump is overwhelmingly positive. He also uses it to deliberately enrage his opponents on issues that matter deeply to them, but not or very little to the majority of Americans.

flash2015
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Re: Lock Her Up

#23 Post by flash2015 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:46 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:30 am
flash2015 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:54 pm
I don't understand - why would you even try and defend this lie as it is so blatant? At least Octavious will accept that sometimes Trump lies like this, but he argues that what he lies about isn't important. Why is holding onto this obvious lie so important to you?
Not really. Some things Trump lies about are not important to anyone. A lot of the things he lies about are important to people, but crucially they are important to people who are not important to Trump. To the people who are important to Trump he rarely, if ever, tells a lie. Or at least something they'd interpret as a lie.

That's what Trump is really good at. He knows, better than the vast majority of his rivals, what people really care about. He uses that to appeal to his supporters, whose experience of Trump is overwhelmingly positive. He also uses it to deliberately enrage his opponents on issues that matter deeply to them, but not or very little to the majority of Americans.
Let's start with the second paragraph. I absolutely agree - he does know better than his rivals what people really care about. And I think he is much smarter than what people give him credit for....but he is definitely not a "details" guy. And I know he deliberately says crazy stuff to troll his opponents...and they too often take the bait (and it also helps the ratings/clicks of many news organizations to play up this stuff).

What I don't understand though is when you say "To the people who are important to Trump he rarely, if ever, tells a lie.". I am not sure I am understanding. Let me give a theoretical example of how I see it - If Trump went to a flat earth society convention and gave a speech explaining that he agrees the earth is flat and the round earth theory is all a conspiracy, the people in the audience would likely believe that someone, FINALLY, is speaking the truth and they would believe Trump is honest. This is the type of "honesty" that I believe Trump is giving his supporters. Is this the type of honesty you are meaning? If not, can you be more specific and give some examples of how he is being so honest, not telling a lie to his supporters?

Octavious
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Re: Lock Her Up

#24 Post by Octavious » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:16 pm

The Flat Earth Society is a rather fun example :). Strangely enough I've been a member for 20 years or so. Don't tell anyone, but it's kinda a joke. Watching people get into serious arguments against it is hilarious.

But for the benefit of the discussion, let's pretend that members of the flat earth society are true believers. Trump would not pretend to agree to gain their support because that would paint him in a very bad light with many of his supporters. It's not a lie he would tell.

As for truths he has told that matter to people, the list is a long one. He has said that the Paris climate deal was a bad deal for traditional American industry. He is undeniably right. Paris was a bugger for all sorts of American industry, coal miners high amongst them. He promised to help fix the damage by pulling out of the deal, and he followed through despite huge opposition from the US establishment and the international community. You can argue that this is bloody stupid from a climate change perspective, but to an American miner you're being listened to and respected for the first time in years. It's huge.

Similar with tax cuts, similar with the courts, similar with trade deals, similar with bombing ISIS, similar with taking a tough stand on immigration.

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