Nike and Kaepernick

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Kingdroid
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#21 Post by Kingdroid » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:26 pm

Stressedlines wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:22 pm
My favorite posters? I dont think I have +1 a single person in my life, but I am not talking about the Catholic church itself, and I will quote you exactly:

"Catholics like when people kneel, or is that only when it's little kids?

This is talking about single Catholic anywhere, is it not? so how many are there?
1.2 billion? If i said anything like that about Islam, it would be 'ban city' for me, and you know it.

For the record, I dont defend the Catholic CHurch ever, since I left them when I was 20
The conservative outrage over pedophilia evaporates very quickly once we start talking about real cases and not speculative conspiracies, eh?

flash2015
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#22 Post by flash2015 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:08 pm

leon1122 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:05 am
brainbomb wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:36 pm
I always find it odd that when an American company takes a side in a political battle, they often come out weaker than before. Most corporations stay away from things that may damage corporate image
It’s because the top executives and CEO have a political agenda of their own. Profits don’t matter as much as pushing your ideology when you’re a multimillionaire or billionaire.
You think they have chosen politics over profit? I find that very hard to believe. I am sure they know their market better than we do...

flash2015
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#23 Post by flash2015 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:13 pm

Whilst I may agree with Kaepernick's politics, I actually don't agree with his platform for making a statement. Unless your job is politics, don't make a political statement on work time. Whether it be Damore or Kaepernick or whoever, it usually all ends in tears.
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LeonWalras
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#24 Post by LeonWalras » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:50 pm

The alternative to taking a knee is standing still, so he's hardly wasting work time either way. Are you posting this at work? I am, but I'm also highly productive at work. I don't buy the idea that on work time we don't get to be individuals.
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Greg_the_republican
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#25 Post by Greg_the_republican » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:37 am

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:13 pm
Whilst I may agree with Kaepernick's politics, I actually don't agree with his platform for making a statement. Unless your job is politics, don't make a political statement on work time. Whether it be Damore or Kaepernick or whoever, it usually all ends in tears.
Yeah, I agree. I think too many celebrities and famous people these days talk about politics too often. If I was famous, I'd keep that to myself.

flash2015
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#26 Post by flash2015 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:18 am

LeonWalras wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:50 pm
The alternative to taking a knee is standing still, so he's hardly wasting work time either way. Are you posting this at work? I am, but I'm also highly productive at work. I don't buy the idea that on work time we don't get to be individuals.
It isn't about posting at work...or not. It is about loudly proclaiming your political beliefs to co-workers and customers. You are guaranteed to p*** off half the people. Would you be OK if there were NFL players that whipped out MAGA hats whenever the anthem came on...or put on "build the wall" or "lock her up" t-shirts?

I really don't want to know who my co-workers or vendors I work with vote for. It detracts from the job. And it becomes poisonous to the culture of the workplace if you hold the minority opinion.

This is not to say people can't hold political opinions. If they on the weekend join "Black Lives Matter" marches or they organize Trump rallies, good on them. Just don't bring that s*** to work.
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Randomizer
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#27 Post by Randomizer » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:35 am

I have a friend whose work break room's TV is tuned to Home and Garden channel and others that have no controversial content about sports, politics, or general news. It's all about no offending anyone and their views.

Then you have schools that regulate student clothing to avoid having anyone wearing political content or gang colors versus free speech rights.

Telamor
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#28 Post by Telamor » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:13 pm

Although I can see how it may help with workplace cohesion to have a non-political work environment I think it is an absolutely toxic expectation. Work and employment are innately political and it is vital workers be able to discuss and engage with politics in the workplace or else they will be left open to abuses by their employers.
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Stressedlines
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#29 Post by Stressedlines » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:23 pm

king,what are you talking about? what specific cases are you talking about, and why do I care if they are 'conservative' or liberal' They are simply animals, regardless of their 'politics'

You like to try and blur the lines, and drag your straw man into everything, but accusing an entire of Religion of liking little children 'kneeling in front of them" while dong the blurring is rather nasty

I am not even religious, and dont tread lightly into that bog for good reason
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flash2015
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#30 Post by flash2015 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:56 pm

Telamor wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:13 pm
Although I can see how it may help with workplace cohesion to have a non-political work environment I think it is an absolutely toxic expectation. Work and employment are innately political and it is vital workers be able to discuss and engage with politics in the workplace or else they will be left open to abuses by their employers.
How is work inherently political? How would not talking about politics in the workplace lead to abuse? Perhaps you can clarify what your definition of politics is.
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Telamor
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#31 Post by Telamor » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:22 am

At its most basics politics is the system through which we distribute resources across society. Work is how the individual gains access to those resources.Work therefore is an innately political activity as it is a direct product of the political system.

An apolitical workplace is one in which collective bargaining and action go out the windows as they are political activities. Discussions on the fairness of conditions or wages can be shut down because they are political. This leaves workers open to exploitation because as history shows management will take every inch of advantage they can get unless prevented legally or resisted by their employers.

flash2015
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#32 Post by flash2015 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:55 pm

Telamor wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:22 am
At its most basics politics is the system through which we distribute resources across society. Work is how the individual gains access to those resources.Work therefore is an innately political activity as it is a direct product of the political system.

An apolitical workplace is one in which collective bargaining and action go out the windows as they are political activities. Discussions on the fairness of conditions or wages can be shut down because they are political. This leaves workers open to exploitation because as history shows management will take every inch of advantage they can get unless prevented legally or resisted by their employers.
OK, let's be clear what I am arguing. I am NOT arguing against discussions which are directly relevant to the workplace. In Damore's case, I object more to the divisive way he wrote his memo (his complete "tone deafness", the implication that the only way someone can disagree with him is because they are biased, the way he made it a partisan issue) than the argument that Google may be going the wrong way about achieving their diversity goals. Google had to sack him.

However, Kaepernick's political protest had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the NFL. The only thing he achieved by doing this was upsetting a majority of NFL fans. They play the anthem before games for a reason - because NFL fans love this stuff. He was hurting the NFL's bottom line so they had every right to let him go. They have no obligation to give him a platform for his political speech.
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flash2015
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#33 Post by flash2015 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:59 pm

Some links:

Most NFL fans support the NFL's anthem policy

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/0 ... /23443820/

33% of NFL fans watched games less because of Kaepernick:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/poll-33- ... 15783.html

Kingdroid
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#34 Post by Kingdroid » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:28 pm

Stressedlines wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:23 pm
king,what are you talking about? what specific cases are you talking about, and why do I care if they are 'conservative' or liberal' They are simply animals, regardless of their 'politics'

You like to try and blur the lines, and drag your straw man into everything, but accusing an entire of Religion of liking little children 'kneeling in front of them" while dong the blurring is rather nasty

I am not even religious, and dont tread lightly into that bog for good reason
Catholics still support an abusive institution en masse. Millions of Catholics have and continue to engage inactive coverup of legitimate pedophilia rings amongst the clergy.

This is not about shaming a religion, it's a literal organization that is being supported and that is harming thousands upon thousands of children (by low estimates) across the globe.

Your argument basically amounts to saying we shouldn't call out Scientology because it's bad to talk about an entire religion.

Telamor
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#35 Post by Telamor » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:56 am

Saying that only political discussion pertaining to the workplace is allowed will eventually lead to the making of arbitrary rulings on what exactly that phrase means that will be made and enforced by management to suit their own needs.

Health and safety, minimum wage, immigration, taxation, police violence, racism (both individual and institutional), gender equality, infrastructure spending, military deployments etc etc can all be argued to be both relevant or irrelevant depending on the individual's preference.
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flash2015
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#36 Post by flash2015 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:27 am

Telamor wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:56 am
Saying that only political discussion pertaining to the workplace is allowed will eventually lead to the making of arbitrary rulings on what exactly that phrase means that will be made and enforced by management to suit their own needs.

Health and safety, minimum wage, immigration, taxation, police violence, racism (both individual and institutional), gender equality, infrastructure spending, military deployments etc etc can all be argued to be both relevant or irrelevant depending on the individual's preference.
What sort of strawman are you making there? People can do what they want. It is a free country. I don't know where you see me advocating for laws to stop people from advocating for political purposes at work.

But don't expect it to go down well with your employer if you do this advocacy...especially if you p*** off half your co-workers or customers like Kaepernik did. It is the very definition of what I call a "Career Limiting Move". And in the end he has achieved precisely bugger all. If anything he has set back the cause he supposedly was advocating for.

And looking at your specific political advocacy examples:

Health and safety/minimum wage? - as long as it pertains to the job at hand.

immigration reform, advocacy for higher/lower taxation, police violence, racism in society, general gender equality issues unrelated to the workplace, infrastructure spending policy, military deployments - I find it hard to understand why any of this is anything but a distraction in the workplace. Don't expect your low-tax co-worker to have the high-tax mantra shoved in his face every day (and visa-versa)...and still be able to have a good working relationship with your co-worker.

Have you ever had a chance to look into what Damore raised in his lawsuit? Of course, he still should have been fired. The guy is a dick. But it looks like plenty of other people should also not be working there too. Even though I would regard myself as "left" the extreme political stuff that people get away with every day make it sound like it would truly be a horribly "toxic" workplace:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr4CICEn9Mg
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Telamor
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#37 Post by Telamor » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:29 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:55 pm
OK, let's be clear what I am arguing. I am NOT arguing against discussions which are directly relevant to the workplace.
Given that this is how you defined what you are arguing you can hardly call my assumption that this statement implied you were against political discussion that did not directly relate to the workplace a straw man. I also didn't mention anything about laws to prevent discussion. What I was talking about was the creation of a culture in which it was frowned upon to discuss politics at work much like the current culture of not discussing wages which only benefits the employer.

As for the policies you believe irrelevant:

Immigration has a depressive effect on wages. Low skilled immigration particularly serves to depress the wages of low skilled jobs.

Taxation policy directly affects how much your monthly wage is worth. For example higher VAT leads to a greater proportional decrease in disposable income the lower your wage. So VAT functions as an effective pay cut for those on lower wages which companies can and should respond to by reducing wages higher up and increasing wages lower down to maintain the same value differential between workers. This is just one example of how ta policy might relate to you and your work environment directly.

Police violence has a pretty huge and obvious effect on individual opportunity and innately colours reactions to authority in ways that can be detrimental to one's ability to operate in hierarchical environments.

General racism also reduces individual opportunity, being more likely to be stopped and searched by police also means you are more likely to be late to work, meetings, and interviews.

I'll leave it there with the examples.

I'd on the Damore thing that Google fired people that argued both for and against Damore's post.

Stressedlines
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#38 Post by Stressedlines » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:53 pm

soKing,let me get this right, and make sure I understand how this works...

You saying "Catholics like seeing little kids kneeling in front of them" is the same as "Catholics support an abusive institution" right?

you got your backtrack mode in full reverse here.

Your original statement, and the one that you just ended up with, could only be connected in your brain. Nobody else would navigate that maze

Kingdroid
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#39 Post by Kingdroid » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:55 pm

Stressedlines wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:53 pm
soKing,let me get this right, and make sure I understand how this works...

You saying "Catholics like seeing little kids kneeling in front of them" is the same as "Catholics support an abusive institution" right?

you got your backtrack mode in full reverse here.

Your original statement, and the one that you just ended up with, could only be connected in your brain. Nobody else would navigate that maze
Yeah, dude, or it was a joke that you took super intensely for some reason. I'm starting to suspect you have some weird ulterior motive for defending catholic priests so hard.

LeonWalras
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Re: Nike and Kaepernick

#40 Post by LeonWalras » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:25 am

This thread is still going? TBH I have much healthier conversations about politics at work than I do on this website.

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