UK legal head resigns

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Octavious
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Re: UK legal head resigns

#61 Post by Octavious » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:48 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 am
I'm entirely flabbergasted by your position here.

The more a person lies, the more you'd trust them to rule you?

Are you utterly fucking thick, or have you failed to explain your love of liars properly?
You have deliberately misunderstood, which is itself a form of lying. Indeed, you are one of the most regular liars on this forum.

Your conclusion is devoid of logic as well. An ability to lie convincingly is, of course, a vital skill for any leader. This has nothing to do with the frequency of how much someone lies, nor did I express any opinion on how this frequency impacts trust. Again, as so often is the case, you argue against opinions purely of your own invention.

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#62 Post by Octavious » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:51 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:54 am
I hate to imagine a world ruled by the Octavious principle: Whoever is the best liar deserves the most power.

Frightening.
Again, another lie from yourself. Whoever is the best liar deserves the most power is not something I have ever said or implied. There is a delightful irony in lying so much as part of an argument against lying ;)

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#63 Post by Octavious » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:57 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:57 am
It is no wonder that "Liberal Democrat" Oct so frequently defends the forces of evil and fascism when he regards deceitfulness as an essential component of leadership.

What a fucking arse hole.
Defending evil and fascism? Yet another lie.

Liberal Democrat in inverted commas... Yet another attempt to cast doubt on the truth.

You are really pushing the boundaries of how much dishonesty you can cram into a single forum session this morning. It's like Trump when he's escaped his handlers and achieved control over the Whitehouse Twitter account. An endless stream of deception :razz:

Arsehole, of course, is purely a matter of opinion so I can't fault you there. But I will fault flash as he demonstrates his utter bias once again by ignoring it :-)

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#64 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:14 am

Octavious wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:57 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:57 am
It is no wonder that "Liberal Democrat" Oct so frequently defends the forces of evil and fascism when he regards deceitfulness as an essential component of leadership.

What a fucking arse hole.
Defending evil and fascism? Yet another lie.

Liberal Democrat in inverted commas... Yet another attempt to cast doubt on the truth.

You are really pushing the boundaries of how much dishonesty you can cram into a single forum session this morning. It's like Trump when he's escaped his handlers and achieved control over the Whitehouse Twitter account. An endless stream of deception :razz:

Arsehole, of course, is purely a matter of opinion so I can't fault you there. But I will fault flash as he demonstrates his utter bias once again by ignoring it :-)
Then please, what IS your position?

I call Boris a liar, and you respond by saying that being a liar is a very positive quality in a leader. Did you say that, or not?

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#65 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:27 am

I do not want to be ruled by liars and cheats. I think this is a reasonable position.

I do not want a nuclear deterrent either, for what it's worth. Nuclear weapons are morally abhorrent and should be destroyed.

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#66 Post by flash2015 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:00 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:28 am
flash2015 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:55 pm
Yes, he was lying out his ass...but that was his only option.
Why?
What was his alternative? He had to lie of course for the politics of it (after all he promised he could get a much better deal).

But he also had to lie to get the more radical Brexit elements to accept the deal too. If he had said it was a crappy deal the more radical Brexit elements would force him into no deal which would be lose-lose for the UK and for Europe.

Do you think there were things he could have done earlier to get a better initial withdrawal deal?

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#67 Post by orathaic » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:17 pm

Another offered resignation? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... al-market/

Don't know what job Lord Keen does, never heard of his position before, but it sounds important...

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#68 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:53 pm

orathaic wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:17 pm
Another offered resignation? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... al-market/

Don't know what job Lord Keen does, never heard of his position before, but it sounds important...
He is the chief law Minister for Scotland. The equivalent of the Attorney General, but with regard to Scots Law. Not an enormously senior Minister in the scheme of things, although important in Scotland, however his resignation would be symbolic because he is a lawyer and this Government of cunts is currently taking an enormous shit on the sacred concept that is the rule of law.

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#69 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:59 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:00 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:28 am
flash2015 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:55 pm
Yes, he was lying out his ass...but that was his only option.
Why?
What was his alternative? He had to lie of course for the politics of it (after all he promised he could get a much better deal).

But he also had to lie to get the more radical Brexit elements to accept the deal too. If he had said it was a crappy deal the more radical Brexit elements would force him into no deal which would be lose-lose for the UK and for Europe.

Do you think there were things he could have done earlier to get a better initial withdrawal deal?
Firstly, if he had to lie to make it look like he had achieved what he promised, then this demonstrates that he should not make absurd, hyperbolic promises that he won't or can't keep. But then, he's a compulsive liar so that doesn't matter to him.

As to your second question, the deal he signed, bearing in mind it is a transition agreement, wasn't actually *too* bad for the UK, so long as it's actually the UK Government's genuine intention to enter into a relatively balanced trade agreement with the EU. Unfortunately, that's pretty clearly *not* Boris's intention as he has done everything in his power to wreck the UK/EU negotiations. What he appears to want is a "no deal" Brexit, to appeal to all the fucking idiot right wing gammon-faced flag-waving Brexiteers who are an important part of his core base. He is positioning to blame the EU for this no deal if it occurs, despite it being his behaviour which is making it ever more likely. He is truly despicable. A toad of a man.

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#70 Post by orathaic » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:06 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:53 pm

He is the chief law Minister for Scotland. The equivalent of the Attorney General, but with regard to Scots Law. Not an enormously senior Minister in the scheme of things, although important in Scotland, however his resignation would be symbolic because he is a lawyer and this Government of cunts is currently taking an enormous shit on the sacred concept that is the rule of law.
Thanks Jamie, then the question is, did he (offer to) resign because of the clear violation of international law (I say clear because it has been stated by the government). Or is he resigned because of what Scottish MPs called a power grab (allowing Westminster set level playing field rules for the whole of the UK rather than having these powers delegated to the devolved assemblies...)

Or you know, both!

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#71 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:32 pm

orathaic wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:06 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:53 pm

He is the chief law Minister for Scotland. The equivalent of the Attorney General, but with regard to Scots Law. Not an enormously senior Minister in the scheme of things, although important in Scotland, however his resignation would be symbolic because he is a lawyer and this Government of cunts is currently taking an enormous shit on the sacred concept that is the rule of law.
Thanks Jamie, then the question is, did he (offer to) resign because of the clear violation of international law (I say clear because it has been stated by the government). Or is he resigned because of what Scottish MPs called a power grab (allowing Westminster set level playing field rules for the whole of the UK rather than having these powers delegated to the devolved assemblies...)

Or you know, both!
The BBC coverage suggests the former.

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#72 Post by flash2015 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:43 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:59 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:00 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:28 am


Why?
What was his alternative? He had to lie of course for the politics of it (after all he promised he could get a much better deal).

But he also had to lie to get the more radical Brexit elements to accept the deal too. If he had said it was a crappy deal the more radical Brexit elements would force him into no deal which would be lose-lose for the UK and for Europe.

Do you think there were things he could have done earlier to get a better initial withdrawal deal?
Firstly, if he had to lie to make it look like he had achieved what he promised, then this demonstrates that he should not make absurd, hyperbolic promises that he won't or can't keep. But then, he's a compulsive liar so that doesn't matter to him.

As to your second question, the deal he signed, bearing in mind it is a transition agreement, wasn't actually *too* bad for the UK, so long as it's actually the UK Government's genuine intention to enter into a relatively balanced trade agreement with the EU. Unfortunately, that's pretty clearly *not* Boris's intention as he has done everything in his power to wreck the UK/EU negotiations. What he appears to want is a "no deal" Brexit, to appeal to all the fucking idiot right wing gammon-faced flag-waving Brexiteers who are an important part of his core base. He is positioning to blame the EU for this no deal if it occurs, despite it being his behaviour which is making it ever more likely. He is truly despicable. A toad of a man.
Let's agree that he is an opportunistic arsehole and quite despicable in the way he lied for the initial Brexit vote.

However, if he really wants "no deal brexit" he could have achieved that last year. To force it he could have just demanded things that the EU would never agree to. It wouldn't have been a surprise as he was threatening "no deal" last year too. Why waste a year and drag it out until now?

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#73 Post by Jamiet99uk » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:55 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:43 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:59 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:00 pm


What was his alternative? He had to lie of course for the politics of it (after all he promised he could get a much better deal).

But he also had to lie to get the more radical Brexit elements to accept the deal too. If he had said it was a crappy deal the more radical Brexit elements would force him into no deal which would be lose-lose for the UK and for Europe.

Do you think there were things he could have done earlier to get a better initial withdrawal deal?
Firstly, if he had to lie to make it look like he had achieved what he promised, then this demonstrates that he should not make absurd, hyperbolic promises that he won't or can't keep. But then, he's a compulsive liar so that doesn't matter to him.

As to your second question, the deal he signed, bearing in mind it is a transition agreement, wasn't actually *too* bad for the UK, so long as it's actually the UK Government's genuine intention to enter into a relatively balanced trade agreement with the EU. Unfortunately, that's pretty clearly *not* Boris's intention as he has done everything in his power to wreck the UK/EU negotiations. What he appears to want is a "no deal" Brexit, to appeal to all the fucking idiot right wing gammon-faced flag-waving Brexiteers who are an important part of his core base. He is positioning to blame the EU for this no deal if it occurs, despite it being his behaviour which is making it ever more likely. He is truly despicable. A toad of a man.
Let's agree that he is an opportunistic arsehole and quite despicable in the way he lied for the initial Brexit vote.

However, if he really wants "no deal brexit" he could have achieved that last year. To force it he could have just demanded things that the EU would never agree to. It wouldn't have been a surprise as he was threatening "no deal" last year too. Why waste a year and drag it out until now?
Because the constant endless argument about Brexit is to Boris's advantage. It divides Labour and is the vehicle Boris has used to take power. Droning on about Brexit won Boris a landslide election victory. He can present the delays as the EU's fault and court endless Daily Mail headlines about the evil EU vs the noble Boris. It distracts the nation from the horrendous mess that a decade of Tory and Lib Dem maladministration has caused. It is in his interests to spin things out as long as possible.

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#74 Post by orathaic » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:55 pm

He had a parliament last year who voted to prevent a no deal. Negotiated a withdrawal agreement, and won a landslide election on the back of having an 'oven ready deal'.

He now appears to be threatening the EU that if they don't agreement to his preferred withdrawal treaty, it will be no trade deal (in the time the withdrawal agreement bought) and no application of the customs rules agreed in the withdrawal deal...

If this is using NI as a poker chip in his bet against the EU, and that is how it is being precieved in much of Northern Ireland (though several Unionist elements, like the DUP may be happy, they definitely flet betrayed by the withdrawal agreement).

I suspect this is going to be remembered as another nail in the UK's coffin.

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#75 Post by taylor4 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:27 pm

To clarify on this, the 2nd Legal eagle to pull out, the Conservative newspaper's Lede graf:
'Lord Keen, the Scottish advocate general and justice minister, has
resigned over the Internal Market Bill, which would allow the Government to break international law.' (Daily Telegraph)

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#76 Post by taylor4 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:59 pm

Anti-Law-breaking 101 cont'd., courtesy of Auntie:
'Lord Keen, Scotland's Advocate General, quit the government, telling the PM: "I have found it increasingly difficult to reconcile what I consider to be my obligations as a Law Officer with your policy intentions."
'Lord Keen objected to the UK Internal Markets Bill, which would allow the government to override parts of the withdrawal bill in contravention of international law.' (BBC)

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#77 Post by orathaic » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:00 pm

Thanks Taylor. Nice to see the clarity that this was about illegal under international law, not politically pissing off the Scottish Parliament (I suspect any promises made to devolved assembly were not legally binding in Westminster).

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#78 Post by Octavious » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:03 am

So this bill will contain an amendment stating that it must be voted on by Parliament before it comes into force, which essentially leaves the UK in exactly the same position after it is passed as it was before it is passed. Nothing will have, in effect, changed. The UK parliament will have the ability to vote this into action if the government present it, just as it had the ability to do so any time in the last year.

The only difference is that it has been highlighted as a possibility to the audience.

Political theatrics, nothing more, nothing less.

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#79 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:00 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:03 am
So this bill will contain an amendment stating that it must be voted on by Parliament before it comes into force, which essentially leaves the UK in exactly the same position after it is passed as it was before it is passed. Nothing will have, in effect, changed. The UK parliament will have the ability to vote this into action if the government present it, just as it had the ability to do so any time in the last year.

The only difference is that it has been highlighted as a possibility to the audience.

Political theatrics, nothing more, nothing less.
Absurd, stupid theatrics that makes the UK look awful on the international stage.

Fucking bullshit from a bullshit PM leading a bullshit government.

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Re: UK legal head resigns

#80 Post by Octavious » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:26 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:00 pm
Absurd, stupid theatrics that makes the UK look awful on the international stage.
Do you think the rest of the world really gives a damn? There's a remarkable peace of doublethink from certain British left wing political enthusiasts who claim both that the UK has declined to international insignificance, and also that the entire world is waiting with baited breath to see whether we might consider breaching some of the minutiae of trade law.

It will never be implemented, there will be a deal, and this will be a footnote of history.

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