Yet another needless mass shooting

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Octavious
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#201 Post by Octavious » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:40 pm

Durga wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:20 pm
If the government wants to become tyrannical your measly guns and lack of training ain't gonna do shit.

And has PE said anything substantial in his blocks of text? Can someone please tldr and translate it for me
Speaking as ex-military, how much training do you think your average squaddie actually has? Your infantry man is combat ready after half a year. A territorial gets considerably less than that by necessity, and it still bloody good. An independent militia bolstered by a few ex servicemen who train the rest of the group could quite quickly be at near professional levels. It's not as if training material is hard to come by. The biggest difference is that the militia will have better kit :P

MattyofG
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#202 Post by MattyofG » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:09 pm

If that was true, the Iraqi national army would have done a much better job at stopping us then they did.

There is just no funding source for the type of logistical back-up you would need in order to be able to realistically confront a hostile army on near equal terms.

The terrorists only managed it because they were willing to spend lives the way we spent bullets and missiles.

I think the honest truth about parroting this line of "Guns keep us safe from a tyrannical government" is that the people who say that are trying to convince both themselves and others that by owning guns they are helping, that they are nobly taking it upon themselves to look after our collective interests. It's a fictional idea that is essential to their self-image.

The reality is, if the folks who really truly are all about the 2nd amendment took over, we'd end up with a government that most of us would not be happy with at all. I agree that a tyrannical corporate dystopia is frighteningly realistic, the issue I have is the 2nd amenders only offer me a different type of tyranny.
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Durga
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#203 Post by Durga » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:03 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:40 pm
Durga wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:20 pm
If the government wants to become tyrannical your measly guns and lack of training ain't gonna do shit.

And has PE said anything substantial in his blocks of text? Can someone please tldr and translate it for me
Speaking as ex-military, how much training do you think your average squaddie actually has? Your infantry man is combat ready after half a year. A territorial gets considerably less than that by necessity, and it still bloody good. An independent militia bolstered by a few ex servicemen who train the rest of the group could quite quickly be at near professional levels. It's not as if training material is hard to come by. The biggest difference is that the militia will have better kit :P
My understanding that military trains you how to follow orders, be organized and work under pressure. If you think your average country bumpkin can do these things you might be a little out of touch. And yes, tanks and drones also help the idea that this is just silly.
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Octavious
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#204 Post by Octavious » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:24 pm

MattyofG wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:09 pm
If that was true, the Iraqi national army would have done a much better job at stopping us then they did.
It's a question of motivation. The Iraqis had no great desire to die fighting foreign bastards for the sake of an Iraqi bastard. They didn't care. Say what you like about US militias, they care.

Also keep in mind that if the US ever gets to the stage that it's turning its military on its own people, rather a lot of ex-military will have joined the rebels. Many of those who remain will not be keen on shooting Americans either. The closer America gets to tyranny, the less effective its military becomes and the more talent joins the rebels.

Sure, a rifleman doesn't stop a tank. So a rifleman doesn't fight a tank. You see a tank and you bloody well scarper. It's almost as if you're expecting the rebels to form line, fix bayonets, and advance civil war style. That ain't gonna happen.

MattyofG
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#205 Post by MattyofG » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:01 am

Now, that is true. The greatest protection we have against martial law is that the army is not wild about the idea. As long as the military isn't interested in enforcing it, it is an empty threat, which is the primary reason it's not a real concern at this point.

Octavious
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#206 Post by Octavious » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:13 am

Where did martial law come from?

Personally I'd say that the protection against tyranny is that the public aren't particularly inclined to elect tyrants.

CroakandDagger
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#207 Post by CroakandDagger » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:45 am

I dunno. Hillary got pretty close to the Top Job.
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President Eden
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#208 Post by President Eden » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:08 am

^Have a NaN

MattyofG
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#209 Post by MattyofG » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:57 pm

As if Hillary was a tyrant. I could see arguing that she was a bastard, but calling her a tyrant is laughable.

However, I will absolute admit that the conservative media did an excellent job of selling the idea that she was some sort of monster. She definitely had an incredible lack of charisma and had no plan for combating it. It was sort of like she just assumed her record would speak for itself (which it almost never does, in politics or in real life).

We had a choice between a career politician and an amoral narcissist. We chose wrong, but there narrative that there was a evil witch is a very compelling excuse for all of the troubles of the most recent administration. Hell, she's less liberal than Obama.

Of course, I am certainly biased, I like no-nonsense people who get shit done, so she was my type. I've never been into reality television.
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MattyofG
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#210 Post by MattyofG » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:02 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:13 am
Where did martial law come from?

Personally I'd say that the protection against tyranny is that the public aren't particularly inclined to elect tyrants.
You brought up martial law indirectly. I was making the assumption that any hypothetical conflict between a militia and the army would be proceeded by martial law, which I do not think is a terribly controversial statement. I used it as a quick analogue for our discussion as it was quicker to write out.

MattyofG
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#211 Post by MattyofG » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:17 pm

MattyofG wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:57 pm
As if Hillary was a tyrant. I could see arguing that she was a bastard, but calling her a tyrant is laughable.

However, I will absolute admit that the conservative media did an excellent job of selling the idea that she was some sort of monster. She definitely had an incredible lack of charisma and had no plan for combating it. It was sort of like she just assumed her record would speak for itself (which it almost never does, in politics or in real life).

We had a choice between a career politician and an amoral narcissist. We chose wrong, but there narrative that there was a evil witch is a very compelling excuse for all of the troubles of the most recent administration. Hell, she's less liberal than Obama.

Of course, I am certainly biased, I like no-nonsense people who get shit done, so she was my type. I've never been into reality television.
This post was too aggressive. I am frustrated about unrelated things, so I was more inappropriate than I would have liked.

Octavious
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#212 Post by Octavious » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:28 pm

MattyofG wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:17 pm
MattyofG wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:57 pm
As if Hillary was a tyrant. I could see arguing that she was a bastard, but calling her a tyrant is laughable.

However, I will absolute admit that the conservative media did an excellent job of selling the idea that she was some sort of monster. She definitely had an incredible lack of charisma and had no plan for combating it. It was sort of like she just assumed her record would speak for itself (which it almost never does, in politics or in real life).

We had a choice between a career politician and an amoral narcissist. We chose wrong, but there narrative that there was a evil witch is a very compelling excuse for all of the troubles of the most recent administration. Hell, she's less liberal than Obama.

Of course, I am certainly biased, I like no-nonsense people who get shit done, so she was my type. I've never been into reality television.
This post was too aggressive. I am frustrated about unrelated things, so I was more inappropriate than I would have liked.
You think so? I rather enjoyed it...

Ogion
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#213 Post by Ogion » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:26 pm

The idea of calling a completely unorganized group of gun hobbyists and collectors a "militia" is absurd. As it stands now, they're a LOT more likely to shoot themselves than anyone else.
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Randomizer
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#214 Post by Randomizer » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:53 pm

There are enough groups calling themselves militias that are organized and training especially in the western US. While it's doubtful they could fight the military, they are capable of holding off less well armed local enforcement officers as shown in the standoffs. That they also have extreme views makes it worse because they feel they don't have to obey federal and state governments.

Randomizer
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#215 Post by Randomizer » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:24 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/us/calif ... index.html

One month later and the first trained idiot teacher fires a loaded gun in class and causes a superficial injury to a student in a safety class. Maybe there's an opening for another Trump bodyguard?
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Randomizer
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#216 Post by Randomizer » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:11 pm

Update on above:

Teacher was not legally allowed to have the gun on campus because he wasn't an on duty police officer at the time. Teacher didn't have permission to bring a gun to the school.

Teacher was testing to see if the gun was loaded by firing it.

Students were made to stay in class until it was over. Even though at least one was noticeably bleeding he wasn't allowed to see the school nurse.

Parents weren't notified for over 3 hours after the shooting.

Jamiet99uk
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#217 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:04 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:24 pm
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/us/calif ... index.html

One month later and the first trained idiot teacher fires a loaded gun in class and causes a superficial injury to a student in a safety class. Maybe there's an opening for another Trump bodyguard?
That incident would never have happened if all the students in the class had also been armed. Clearly more guns is the answer to this sort of thing.
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Octavious
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#218 Post by Octavious » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:29 am

Randomizer wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:11 pm
Students were made to stay in class until it was over. Even though at least one was noticeably bleeding he wasn't allowed to see the school nurse.
I'm a little confused by what this means. Until it was over? A shot followed by bits of masonry falling onto the floor lasts a good couple of seconds. Not even the final class of the year can vacate a classroom that quickly. A kid who has picked a spot can be noticeably bleeding, and this doesn't always warrant medical attention. Also, are American school nurses better than ours? All ours ever did was hand out a paracetamol... until health and safety regs stopped them doing even that.

Incrementalist
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#219 Post by Incrementalist » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:26 am

I don't think the 2nd Amendment is incompatible with strict penalties for negligence or illegal use.

Is there any legal reason why the registered owner of a gun that is used in a robbery (and not reported missing) can't be sentenced to, say, 10 years in prison? Or for this teacher who discharged a gun in class to get 2 years in the slammer?

President Eden
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Re: Yet another needless mass shooting

#220 Post by President Eden » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:13 am

Incrementalist wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:26 am
Is there any legal reason why the registered owner of a gun that is used in a robbery (and not reported missing) can't be sentenced to, say, 10 years in prison?
Someone burglarizes your home while you're on vacation, breaks into the safe and steals your gun, then uses it later the same evening in a shooting. You don't have a security alarm system, and consequently you don't find out until the next day, when your neighbor notices your kicked-open door and calls the cops.

10 years for going on vacation and being the victim of a burglary?

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