Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

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cdngooner
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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#21 Post by cdngooner » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:33 pm

I tend to agree that the alliances could be better assigned.

Russia, for example, starts with an extra unit, but that is counteracted by its having to defend both the south and the west. With Turkey as a guaranteed ally, there is none of this "arranged bounce into BLA" nonsense, and the Juggernaut gets started right away. I think Russia-Turkey is heavily favoured.

I agree with Minister that the rules for 3 players already give us balanced alliances: England-Germany-Austria / Italy-Russia / France-Turkey.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#22 Post by cdngooner » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:35 pm

Whatever the rules are going to be, I think all players have to agree that Dioptre (who started the game) gets the final call, but he should announce the rules publicly, here in the forum, before the game starts.

After game starts, players are anonymous and we won't know who Dioptre is. Nor would it be fair to allow Dioptre to set the rules after he sees who he is.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#23 Post by Minister of Silly Walks » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:52 pm

E/G/A and I/R favors E/G and I/R, respectively, and weaken France and A/T, but that's still better than Western Triple/Juggernaut.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#24 Post by gimix » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:16 pm

yavuzovic wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:48 am
No! I don't want Minister to be banned. Why do you hope that?
Who says i want MoSW to be banned? I was just amazed by the quantity of games they can play at the same time. I've been in 6 simultaneous game at most and i was already neglecting press and making mistakes :shock:

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#25 Post by OnlyShots » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:44 pm

Hey, this looks interesting. I would love to join in if possible, and my RR should be high enough. Do I just hop into the game provided in the OP?

I definitely take much more enjoyment in working together to achieve a goal than brutally stabbing your ally.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#26 Post by Minister of Silly Walks » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:55 pm

OnlyShots wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:44 pm
Hey, this looks interesting. I would love to join in if possible, and my RR should be high enough. Do I just hop into the game provided in the OP?

I definitely take much more enjoyment in working together to achieve a goal than brutally stabbing your ally.
There is only one more player needed, so if possible I would prefer the last person to wait until Dioptre confirms the alliances setup.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#27 Post by Dioptre » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:05 pm

Hi Folks,
A few people have asked for the alliances to be changed. The reason I selected the original alliances was as much for opportunity for direct co-operation as for balance. For example, F/T is balance/wise a good alliance, but the strength comes from being across the stalemate in the end-game, not from any opportunity to co-ordinate for most of the game.

Since there seems some consensus that the Germany-alone as a desperate balancing act isn't going to work, I'm happy to switch to the four player variant: I/R, A/F, T/G, E by itself

I'd appreciate it if players keep track of how fun/co-operative they find each alliance. My personal belief is that diplomacy is pretty self-balancing when played by good players.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#28 Post by OnlyShots » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:19 pm

Dioptre wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:05 pm
Hi Folks,
A few people have asked for the alliances to be changed. The reason I selected the original alliances was as much for opportunity for direct co-operation as for balance. For example, F/T is balance/wise a good alliance, but the strength comes from being across the stalemate in the end-game, not from any opportunity to co-ordinate for most of the game.

Since there seems some consensus that the Germany-alone as a desperate balancing act isn't going to work, I'm happy to switch to the four player variant: I/R, A/F, T/G, E by itself

I'd appreciate it if players keep track of how fun/co-operative they find each alliance. My personal belief is that diplomacy is pretty self-balancing when played by good players.
I do really like this setup, however England as a solo seems a tad bit too easy. Perhaps give it a special condition where it must draw with the most Supply Centers out of everyone else by the time only one alliance stands? And when one country falls, do the other alliances stay the same- and can that country whose partner has fell can still win the game solo?

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#29 Post by cdngooner » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:57 pm

I'm happy to switch to the four player variant: I/R, A/F, T/G, E by itself
Thanks Dioptre. I consider the rules set. Looking forward to the game starting.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#30 Post by Minister of Silly Walks » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:04 pm

OnlyShots wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:19 pm

I do really like this setup, however England as a solo seems a tad bit too easy. Perhaps give it a special condition where it must draw with the most Supply Centers out of everyone else by the time only one alliance stands? And when one country falls, do the other alliances stay the same- and can that country whose partner has fell can still win the game solo?
England seems to be in a better position in this setup than any other country would be without an ally, but the element of luck there seems to be not much, if any, greater than drawing Italy in the original game. I had before posted in this thread a link to one of Calhamer's articles, arguing that it would require immense effort to balance out the positional differences between countries and still it won't do enough good to bother.

The alliances should stay the same even after someone gets eliminated.

The original setup was a bit easier in regard to scoring, as those pairings of countries usually prosper or lose together if they do cooperate wholeheartedly. The less-players-than-usual variants state that you win or get a share in a draw as long as at least one of the countries you control does, but this might not work out just as well if we have seven players pretending they are four :-)
It might be interesting to decide in the end of the game what logical implications such a situation might have in the real world and how it would be different without the alliances.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#31 Post by Squigs44 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:11 pm

So the rules are now: These alliances are unbreakable. You win together, or lose together. An alliance wins by eliminating both other alliances. England wins by surviving until a draw is agreed.

This means that both an alliance and England could win simultaneously, which will actually make England a very valuable ally since a 3 way draw with England and 2 alliance members is very feasible. Props to England if they can use this to their advantage and get a surprise solo.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#32 Post by Minister of Silly Walks » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:21 pm

Squigs44 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:11 pm
So the rules are now: These alliances are unbreakable. You win together, or lose together. An alliance wins by eliminating both other alliances. England wins by surviving until a draw is agreed.

This means that both an alliance and England could win simultaneously, which will actually make England a very valuable ally since a 3 way draw with England and 2 alliance members is very feasible. Props to England if they can use this to their advantage and get a surprise solo.
The question was: what if, say, Austria gets eliminated while France goes forth to dominate the west? What counts for a victory for France and what is the end result for Austria?

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#33 Post by Dioptre » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:23 pm

Clarification of alliance rules, all in one place:

The three alliances are I/R, A/F, TG. England is alone
The alliances are free to make deals with other players on the board.

The alliance partners may not make any deals or moves that are hostile to each other. They must act in a complete spirit of co-operation.

For England, the victory condition is to still be alive when the game ends. A good victory is where England is a powerful player in this final ending, a weak victory is just still having a supply centre.

For the other alliances, the ultimate victory condition is to be the sole remaining alliance, with both parties still alive and of roughly equal power. Whether or not England is still alive is irrelevant to the quality of this victory

Weaker victory conditions are to participate in an agreed draw involving more than one alliance. The more alliances still alive, the weaker the victory. It is irrelevant whether England is still alive, but having your partner eliminated is always a weaker victory than having your partner still alive.

If the game ends because one power reaches 18 centres without any of the other victory conditions being met, the ending is evaluated according to who is still alive. It does not count as a win for the solo player or their alliance.

Did I miss anything?

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#34 Post by Dioptre » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:25 pm

Oh, I missed one thing:
Being eliminated is a lose condition for the player who is eliminated. So having your partner eliminated is slightly better than being eliminated yourself, but you may not take any action or make any deal to encourage this outcome.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#35 Post by Minister of Silly Walks » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:44 pm

Thanks. For a bit more clarification, I assume that "moves that are hostile to each other" refers not to anything from bouncing the ally out of somewhere to capturing their SCs per se, but to doing so without an agreement with said ally?

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#36 Post by OnlyShots » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:49 pm

So having your partner eliminated does not mean you lose as a whole right? Just that if you make it to the end draw, the victory won't be worth as much?

Also, what happens if England gets a solo? Singular victory for England? Or something else?

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#37 Post by Dioptre » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:07 am

These are clarifications, not changes to the already listed rules:

Hostility:
"Moves that are hostile to each other" is evaluated by the intent, not by anything objective on the board. Talking your partner into agreeing to a move that you think is actually against their interest is "hostile". Talking another player into a move that you think hurts your partner is "hostile".

Supporting an attack on your partner's home center, with the genuine intent of helping your partner, is "not hostile".

As a general rule of thumb, players should try to make moves that their partner agrees with. This isn't an absolute rule, but is a good test.

Win conditions:
Yes, having your partner eliminated does not mean that you lose, but it does mean that if you make it to the end draw, the victory isn't worth as much.

If England reaches 18 centres, the game ends, and is evaluated as per the victory condition rules. It would certainly count as a complete win for England (they have survived and prospered). If there is one remaining alliance, with both partners still alive, that is also a complete win for them. If there are two remaining alliances, it's still a complete win for England, and a partial win for the surviving alliances, and so on.

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#38 Post by Squigs44 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:37 am

Dioptre wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:23 pm
Clarification of alliance rules, all in one place:

The three alliances are I/R, A/F, TG. England is alone
The alliances are free to make deals with other players on the board.

The alliance partners may not make any deals or moves that are hostile to each other. They must act in a complete spirit of co-operation.

For England, the victory condition is to still be alive when the game ends. A good victory is where England is a powerful player in this final ending, a weak victory is just still having a supply centre.

For the other alliances, the ultimate victory condition is to be the sole remaining alliance, with both parties still alive and of roughly equal power. Whether or not England is still alive is irrelevant to the quality of this victory

Weaker victory conditions are to participate in an agreed draw involving more than one alliance. The more alliances still alive, the weaker the victory. It is irrelevant whether England is still alive, but having your partner eliminated is always a weaker victory than having your partner still alive.

If the game ends because one power reaches 18 centres without any of the other victory conditions being met, the ending is evaluated according to who is still alive. It does not count as a win for the solo player or their alliance.

Did I miss anything?
Wait I can lose by soloing, even if my partner has the second most SCs? That seems to be counterintuitive to me

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#39 Post by OnlyShots » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:38 am

Alright, makes sense. Thanks for explaining! Am I given the green light to join?

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Re: Variant rules game for players who like co-operation

#40 Post by OnlyShots » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:40 am

Squigs44 wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:37 am
Wait I can lose by soloing, even if my partner has the second most SCs? That seems to be counterintuitive to me
I'm pretty sure what he means is that you can solo, however your victory won't be worth as much as opposed to defeating the other alliances first before achieving victory. If you achieve victory while defeating all other alliances, then it's a plus for you.

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