Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

New players can go here for helpful advice and to sign up for our mentor program, or if you're a veteran help answer questions.
Forum rules
This is an area for new members or members looking for help with the site or Diplomacy. Off topic threads and replies will be moved to the appropriate category.
Post Reply
Message
Author
yavuzovic
Posts: 2586
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Karma: 463
Contact:

Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#1 Post by yavuzovic » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:51 am

Sometimes people just want to deal damage on the player who caused them to lose. Sometimes they refuse a beneficial alliance in order to punish a player for their former betrayal. But what I want to hear about is a different kind of players: Those who don't see the forbidding threat in the future and go for their small short-term goals, resulting both of you to lose.
Is it possible to make these people understand the danger?
Is it possible to manipulate them to the right path?
How can I play if someone is playing in favour of their own enemy, by fighting the wrong person?
4

A_Tin_Can
Lifetime Site Contributor
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:18 pm
Karma: 301

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#2 Post by A_Tin_Can » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:14 pm

You said:

> Is it possible to *make* these people understand the danger?

(emphasis added)

I would say: not with that attitude.

Persuasion is not about making people see the world your way (for example, who are you to say that your way is the right way?). Persuasion is about understanding how someone sees the world and seeing what would motivate them to change their behaviour.

> Is it possible to manipulate them to the right path?

In general, I believe that thinking about Diplomacy as manipulation is not effective. I think Diplomacy is about working with someone by understanding their goals, figuring out which of their goals align with yours, and then helping them achieve those goals.

I don't think diplomacy is about manipulating people into doing what you want. Many players play that way, but I think that's the short path that can only get you so far.
9

Yigg
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:56 am
Location: Wisconsin, United States
Karma: 221

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#3 Post by Yigg » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:14 pm

I'd like to piggyback on ATC's point about persuasion, perspective, and ultimately psychology. Now, I'm no psychologist, but I'm pretty sure that different people respond to different methods of persuasion...differently. So I think it's important to get to know who you're trying to persuade and maybe understand how they react to things. Speaking strictly for myself, were I the subject of your thought problem, I would react poorly to persuasion attempts that involve condescension (something I've found to occur more often than I like, but that's another topic). Instead, I react better to relationship building, so when a heartfelt appeal is made, I'm far more inclined to listen. Especially if you can work in a pop culture reference that makes me giggle. Again, this is just me. I would imagine that there's someone out there who would respond well to the First Officer onboard the V.K. Konovalov telling Captain Tupelov, "You arrogant ass, you've killed us! Though to be fair, the Konovalov DID blow up.
4

DougJoe
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:02 pm
Location: Alto, MI, USA
Karma: 31

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#4 Post by DougJoe » Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:17 am

Yigg wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:14 pm
... I would imagine that there's someone out there who would respond well to the First Officer onboard the V.K. Konovalov telling Captain Tupelov, "You arrogant ass, you've killed us! Though to be fair, the Konovalov DID blow up.
That's brilliant! I, for one, would *totally* respond to a message like that... I very clearly remember going to see _Hunt for Red October_ in the theater with some friends when I was in high school...

...and, to this day, when faced with a difficult problem, I ask myself how would I make a crew want to get off a *nuclear* submarine.
3

yavuzovic
Posts: 2586
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Karma: 463
Contact:

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#5 Post by yavuzovic » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:31 pm

A_Tin_Can wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:14 pm
Thank you, I understand the thing you mean.
The actual question that I wanted to ask was more like:
I see the upcoming danger for both me and him but can't make him see that, as he is trying to grab 1-2 more centers.
How should I approach to a person like that? Can I directly say that this will cause his death? Should I give him some possible scenarios and make him realise on his own? What do you suggest?
1

Claesar
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1813
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1285

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#6 Post by Claesar » Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:00 am

yavuzovic wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:31 pm
A_Tin_Can wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:14 pm
Thank you, I understand the thing you mean.
The actual question that I wanted to ask was more like:
I see the upcoming danger for both me and him but can't make him see that, as he is trying to grab 1-2 more centers.
How should I approach to a person like that? Can I directly say that this will cause his death? Should I give him some possible scenarios and make him realise on his own? What do you suggest?
Is the scoring DSS? Say you'll voluntarily give those centres to him from your own if he helps stop the solo.

If it's too late for that you were too late to see the solo threat yourself..
1

PRINCE WILLIAM
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:17 am
Karma: 410

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#7 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:04 pm

Yigg wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:14 pm
Captain Tupelov
Tupolev!
3

yavuzovic
Posts: 2586
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Karma: 463
Contact:

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#8 Post by yavuzovic » Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:40 pm

Claesar wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:00 am
yavuzovic wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:31 pm
A_Tin_Can wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:14 pm
Thank you, I understand the thing you mean.
The actual question that I wanted to ask was more like:
I see the upcoming danger for both me and him but can't make him see that, as he is trying to grab 1-2 more centers.
How should I approach to a person like that? Can I directly say that this will cause his death? Should I give him some possible scenarios and make him realise on his own? What do you suggest?
Is the scoring DSS? Say you'll voluntarily give those centres to him from your own if he helps stop the solo.

If it's too late for that you were too late to see the solo threat yourself..
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=269930
That's thr game and I can't convince Russia and Turkey, decide yourself
1

Claesar
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1813
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1285

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#9 Post by Claesar » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:02 am

yavuzovic wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:40 pm
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=269930
That's thr game and I can't convince Russia and Turkey, decide yourself
Well, it's not the eleventh hour yet.. Though Italy CDing is worrisome.
1

A_Tin_Can
Lifetime Site Contributor
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:18 pm
Karma: 301

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#10 Post by A_Tin_Can » Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:16 pm

How should I approach to a person like that? Can I directly say that this will cause his death?
In general (without knowing more about this player), I would suggest not doing that.

Diplomacy players generally like to be right, and making a big predictive claims that they (obviously) don't agree with will tend to push people down the path of responding like "you're just saying that because you lost out" or "nah, let me prove you wrong by keeping those centres".

I approach play that I don't understand by asking questions: "Woah, I thought we had a good deal going, why'd you take my centres?" might be met with:

"lol you can't stop me"
"I'm sorry, but right now I think it makes sense for me to work with <player>, because <reason>"
"Look, I think it makes sense for me to work with <player>, because <reason>"
"Yeah, your ideas didn't work for me, because <reason>"
"Yeah, your ideas were bad, because <reason>"
"Fuck you."

These could all be very different players, even if the outcome of the play is the same.

If you can't motivate someone with words, you can motivate them with the board.

etc.

In your specific game, assuming experienced players, I think a reasonable Russian answer to why they're not worried about Germany is "I can't stab Germany because I will be murdered by those Turkish armies that have nowhere to go but Russian centres", and a reasonable Turkey answer is "I can't stab Germany because I am too far away, you should totally get Russia to do it, but I'm not going to tell you that because I am pretending that Russia doesn't realise I'm planning to stab" (though everyone is generally out of position here).

Consider that Russia isn't really your friend here - Russia would want Germany to overextend against you, which is probably why vienna is German-to speed Germany up against you.

As Russia in that game, I would work with Germany, trying to pit them against you, and stab Turkey for not having any pro-russian options remaining with those units. If Germany attacks you, they have slower growth options than Russia- especially with that Russian fleet right there.
3

yavuzovic
Posts: 2586
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:42 pm
Karma: 463
Contact:

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#11 Post by yavuzovic » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:30 pm

While the game is pretty dead, I will comment as it continued with all countries.
Turkey had a lot of fleets in Mediterranean already and we saw a working Juggernaut on the board. For Russia, wouldn't it be safer if he agreed with Turkey (pretending this is happening before the builds turn that Turkey built 2 armies) and removed the dangerous Germany, who potentionally has the centers that belong to England and France? Germany was strong at west.
Also I asked the question from France's eyes as I was playing as France, but thank you for all the comment.

THC
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:32 am
Location: UK
Karma: 11
Contact:

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#12 Post by THC » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:02 am

There are some assumptions being made here among the excellent advice. The main assumption is that a player can be swayed by persuasion, manipulation, pleas, or whatever.

Richard Sharp named this kind of player an Armoured Duck. She's a player who keeps going with her chosen path no matter what. It might be vengeance for a stab. It might be ignorance of the danger. It might be that the Duck believes she's going to get something from the game by drawing. It might unfortunately be that she recognises the danger but is playing to grab SCs to hold as many as she can at the end of the game.

It doesn't really matter why she's ploughing on regardless, that's what she's doing. Assuming that she can somehow be moved from her course might be missing the point. She's not interested.

It isn't always possible to reach someone, however you try. You've missed the chance.

If you want to avoid this situation the work has to have been done much earlier in the game. It should have started in 1901. You know that bit of the game when everyone tells you to establish communications with all other players? That's when this starts. It's when you begin to build the relationship you may need later.

All that great advice above is needed right at the start of the game. It's no guarantee that you won't find yourself in this situation but it's the best insurance you have.

You may not be facing an Armoured Duck; hopefully you're not. And you just have to keep the diplomacy going - what choice do you have? It's certainly bad diplomacy from this player. However it may also be that your diplomacy was pretty bad earlier in the game.

I know because I've had to look back at my own bad diplomacy enough.

DougJoe
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:02 pm
Location: Alto, MI, USA
Karma: 31

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#13 Post by DougJoe » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:31 am

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:04 pm
Yigg wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:14 pm
Captain Tupelov
Tupolev!
Was reading this again the other day and you are quite correct, sir... although, I feel it worth nothing that, in the book, the Konovalov is not destroyed by her own torpedos.
1

Yigg
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:56 am
Location: Wisconsin, United States
Karma: 221

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#14 Post by Yigg » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:59 pm

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:04 pm
Yigg wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:14 pm
Captain Tupelov
Tupolev!
TUPELOV!
DougJoe wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:31 am
Was reading this again the other day and you are quite correct, sir... although, I feel it worth nothing that, in the book, the Konovalov is not destroyed by her own torpedos.
Quite right! I believe the Konovalov is rammed to death by the Red October.

Gonna pour one out for my dearly departed Captain Tupelov. Rammed to death before his time.

To Tupelov!
Давайте выпьем за то, чтобы мы испытали столько горя, сколько капель вина останется в наших бокалах!
2

DougJoe
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:02 pm
Location: Alto, MI, USA
Karma: 31

Re: Managing an Ally's Bad Diplomacy

#15 Post by DougJoe » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:42 pm

Yigg wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:59 pm
DougJoe wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:31 am
Was reading this again the other day and you are quite correct, sir... although, I feel it worth nothing that, in the book, the Konovalov is not destroyed by her own torpedos.
Quite right! I believe the Konovalov is rammed to death by the Red October.

Gonna pour one out for my dearly departed Captain Tupelov. Rammed to death before his time.

To Tupelov!
Давайте выпьем за то, чтобы мы испытали столько горя, сколько капель вина останется в наших бокалах!
Yup, the Red October rams the Konovalov. The latter does get in an initial torpedo hit on the former first, then the eventual second shot has the safety-lock issue that's also shown in the movie... the ramming happens shortly thereafter.

On a diplomacy note, I remember liking the scenes in the movie between the American politician and the Soviet Ambassador.
1

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests