Communication with Orders in Gunboat

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tr1285
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Communication with Orders in Gunboat

#1 Post by tr1285 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:27 am

I'm trying to learn how to play gunboat and waiting for a mentor to free up, but I have a quick question.

It seems that in order to communicate your desire to ally with a neighbor normally you would support-hold their units. Is there any meaning behind other orders? One that I think I've witnessed a couple times is a support-move of your own unit without a corresponding move order. It almost seems to say, "Look, I thought about doing this attack on you, but I didn't, so give me some help elsewhere." Although perhaps it could equally be saying, "I almost attacked you this move, so you better protect against me or launch a preemptive strike next move."

I've also heard that a convoy order to somewhere on the board (with no fleets to carry out the convoy) could mean something, but I'm not sure what. I'd think I've seen this in my games yet.

Any other conventions for communicating with your move orders that a beginner should be aware of? Thanks.

Claesar
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Re: Communication with Orders in Gunboat

#2 Post by Claesar » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:00 am

tr1285 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:27 am
I'm trying to learn how to play gunboat and waiting for a mentor to free up, but I have a quick question.

It seems that in order to communicate your desire to ally with a neighbor normally you would support-hold their units. Is there any meaning behind other orders? One that I think I've witnessed a couple times is a support-move of your own unit without a corresponding move order. It almost seems to say, "Look, I thought about doing this attack on you, but I didn't, so give me some help elsewhere." Although perhaps it could equally be saying, "I almost attacked you this move, so you better protect against me or launch a preemptive strike next move."
For me, a support move on my own unit (without the actual move order) would indeed indicate a desire to move there. I would absolutely never use it as a threat though. I've never seen that either. Do you have a link to a game where this happened?

Supporting Holds is nice to indicate a desire to cooperate (and it's easier to spot for most players), but I prefer support moves to indicate where I'd like an ally to move to. I'll give some examples later.
I've also heard that a convoy order to somewhere on the board (with no fleets to carry out the convoy) could mean something, but I'm not sure what. I'd think I've seen this in my games yet.
A convoy generally indicates a desire to move there, or to attack that player. For instance, Tunis moving to Greece (without the convoy order) could signal Turkey to attack Austria together with Italy. I'll show some examples later.
Any other conventions for communicating with your move orders that a beginner should be aware of? Thanks.
Your builds are the most obvious way of communicating. Examples later, again, as I need to go to a meeting..

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Re: Communication with Orders in Gunboat

#3 Post by Claesar » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:04 pm

Let's start with some simple ones. This is a live game I recently played as England http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=243768

Most orders in 1901 are standard. Notably are however:
1) I open with a somewhat anti-French Lon-EC.
2) France opens with an aggressive play for Belgium.
3) Italy vacates Venice and leaves no unit adjacent to Trieste. Make no mistake, this is already a strong signal for cooperation (to Austria). It's stronger than Ven S Tri Hold, even though the latter may be more obvious.


The strongest signal in Autumn is F Ion-Tun. While Italy had the option to convoy, they chose to move the fleet instead. Not because A Apu had something more useful to do (because it didn't), but because Italy thinks about attacking France. This is obvious because any attack on Turkey or Austria is better served with a fleet in Ionian. Turkey however does not oblige and builds a fleet in Smyrna.

Turkey not moving to Black Sea would've been a signal, if it wasn't an NMR.

I manage to sneak into Belgium and Germany bounces Russia. The latter somewhat indicates a desire to work with me (by taking away pressure on Norway), so I decide to oblige by building a fleet in Liverpool. It's a very strong signal to Germany that I want to attack France together, as that's all the fleet in that position is good for (realistically). Germany builds a fleet in Berlin which will obviously be used to stake a claim on Sweden (because that's simply the closest thing by far).

1902:
German Army Holland supports my army in London to Belgium. You can see this if you pop up the big map, or the order log. He's indicating he wants me to make that move (so I can then help G into Burgundy). I oblige in Autumn.

Turkish Army Bulgaria supports Rumania to Hold. It's cute, but it doesn't really add to not moving to Black Sea. The sign for cooperation is already there. In the Turk's shoes, I would've ordered support for Rum-Serb. That's the move you want to see, so show it!

1903: My Army in Belgium supports Ruhr to Burgundy. I have a very strong preference for Ruhr moving, as it makes me feel more secure in Belgium. Less chance of a stab, you see. That's why I order that same support in Autumn rather than supporting Munich to Burgundy as Germany suggest. Germany agrees and we take Burgundy.


I think this already gives a decent example of the various signals available. Feel free to ask questions about any of these, or others you've come across. I might do a follow-up post in 18 hours or so, but I'm going to do some work first..
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tr1285
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Re: Communication with Orders in Gunboat

#4 Post by tr1285 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:23 pm

Claesar wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:00 am

For me, a support move on my own unit (without the actual move order) would indeed indicate a desire to move there. I would absolutely never use it as a threat though. I've never seen that either. Do you have a link to a game where this happened?
My current game I'm wondering about is Anonymous but I found this in a previous game:
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=242515
In Autumn 1905, Italy tried to support himself to Ionian but didn't move there. I think I interpreted it as a mis-order at the time.

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Re: Communication with Orders in Gunboat

#5 Post by tr1285 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:29 pm

Maybe he is trying to ask for a DMZ of Ionian with Turkey?

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Re: Communication with Orders in Gunboat

#6 Post by Claesar » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:05 pm

tr1285 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:23 pm
My current game I'm wondering about is Anonymous
That's irrelevant. We're not allowed to publically discuss ongoing Gunboats regardless of their anonimity. We could talk about ongoing anonymous (non-tournament) Press games, but that's not the point here.
I found this in a previous game:
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=242515
In Autumn 1905, Italy tried to support himself to Ionian but didn't move there. I think I interpreted it as a mis-order at the time.
Italy is an experienced GB player, so I'm expecting something here.

In 1901, Italy support Holds Trieste twice. So they do know about signalling.

Autumn 1902, Italy orders a convoy to Albania without the move order. That looks like a misorder.
Spring 1903, Italy supports Trieste to Albania. Makes more sense, but inconsistent with the phase before it.
Spring 1905: Italy supports Turkey to Trieste.
Autumn 1905: Italy supports Austria to Trieste. Again inconsistent with the turn before, for no apparent reason.
The failure around Ionian is certainly a misorder.


Conclusion: This Italy is trying, which is good. I wouldn't necessarily try to read too deep into it though.
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Re: Communication with Orders in Gunboat

#7 Post by Stressedlines » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:00 pm

ok, I don't do a lot of post-games, but game was frustrating for me because RL stuff forced me to make moves (and a few misorders0

When I play from my phone, I tend to make very very bad mistakes from time to time, which is why I try to make sure I never play live on the phone, and almost never any moves if it can be helped from the phone.

so lets make sure we know that in 1901, Austria tried twice to poke Trieste, and I supported twice. He never obliged me with a move south, even though turkey and Russia are working close together, and 100% anti-Austrian (army to Romania)

1902 I try to entice turkey since Austria is not playing nice with me and moved a fleet to Tunis hping he builds differently. However, that being said, his A1902 move of ank to con should have tipped me off, but I must have missed it

Keep in mind, Austria has 100% turkey and Russia in his grill, and never once moves against them, while I made no move vs them. I was honestly fishing for allies this whole game, and nobody bites

I didn't want to move Apulia, I wanted Trieste to come down, or something I cant remember, but I was obviously frustrated with the game already, and could have just been spiteful I think that fleet sitting there the whole game in Trieste pissed me off, and turkey and Russia were in sync so I think I was just doing dumb stuff Cant recall

I was never outwardly hostile to Austria, but never got the warm feeling I needed to try and move in a general direction, which would have at least required his fleet in Greece for that to work.

I think honestly, I was hoping to get in on france, as I tend to do with Italy, but Austira never engaged fully to the east to give me that chance.
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Re: Communication with Orders in Gunboat

#8 Post by Stressedlines » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:01 pm

and the 1905 order was 100% a misorder I should never play from my phone, but in airports it cant be helped usually
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