why are my support holds failing??

New players can go here for helpful advice and to sign up for our mentor program, or if you're a veteran help answer questions.
Forum rules
This is an area for new members or members looking for help with the site or Diplomacy. Off topic threads and replies will be moved to the appropriate category.
Post Reply
Message
Author
FlaviusAetius
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:15 am
Karma: 99

why are my support holds failing??

#1 Post by FlaviusAetius » Wed May 08, 2019 6:00 am

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=241092

Once in Autumn 1904(I lose Belgium despite support holding it with English channel)
and
Once in Autumn 1910(I lose West Med despite support holding it with North Africa)

In both instances, on the map, its shown me doing nothing, but in the order log, it says it failed, despite it suppose to be working??
1

90kicvesb
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:55 am
Karma: 15

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#2 Post by 90kicvesb » Wed May 08, 2019 6:11 am

A support hold on a unit ordered to move does not count.
3

FlaviusAetius
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:15 am
Karma: 99

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#3 Post by FlaviusAetius » Wed May 08, 2019 6:17 am

:o :o :o :o :o

dargorygel
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1808
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:55 pm
Location: Over the rainbow
Karma: 1231
Contact:

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#4 Post by dargorygel » Wed May 08, 2019 12:08 pm

This is actually one of the more common misconceptions we fall into. A support order must either be supporting to move, or supporting to hold.

marperra
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:19 pm
Karma: 10

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#5 Post by marperra » Thu May 09, 2019 7:26 am

And what about this case:
A support hold B.
B is ordered to move to C, but can't actually move because of a standoff.

So does the support of A count, in case somebody else attacks B, or is it cut?
1

Claesar
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 518

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#6 Post by Claesar » Thu May 09, 2019 8:45 am

marperra wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:26 am
And what about this case:
A support hold B.
B is ordered to move to C, but can't actually move because of a standoff.

So does the support of A count, in case somebody else attacks B, or is it cut?
Nope, the order fails because the unit is ordered to move.

Only actions for a unit supported to hold are "Hold", "Support" and "Convoy", if you want the support hold to be successful.
3

dargorygel
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1808
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:55 pm
Location: Over the rainbow
Karma: 1231
Contact:

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#7 Post by dargorygel » Thu May 09, 2019 11:58 am

It is naturaly (but wrong) for folk to think that a support order fails or succeeds based on what actually happens, instead of based on what is ORDERED to happen.
Apparently, generals and admirals circa 1901 were quite robotic.

Claesar
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 518

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#8 Post by Claesar » Thu May 09, 2019 1:28 pm

dargorygel wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:58 am
It is naturaly (but wrong) for folk to think that a support order fails or succeeds based on what actually happens, instead of based on what is ORDERED to happen.
Apparently, generals and admirals circa 1901 were quite robotic.
Even though the move fails, the army does march. They fight a valiant battle, but are ultimately forced to retreat.

FlaviusAetius
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:15 am
Karma: 99

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#9 Post by FlaviusAetius » Thu May 09, 2019 3:37 pm

marperra wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:26 am
And what about this case:
A support hold B.
B is ordered to move to C, but can't actually move because of a standoff.

So does the support of A count, in case somebody else attacks B, or is it cut?
Happened to me in both situations, I was like hey just order it to move, and if it fails, who cares! I'll still be able to hold Belgium, but NOPE

Mercy
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:03 pm
Karma: 127

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#10 Post by Mercy » Fri May 10, 2019 1:58 am

By the way, you can always see failed support orders on the big map.

ziran
Posts: 194
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:21 am
Karma: 64
Contact:

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#11 Post by ziran » Fri May 10, 2019 2:21 am

Also, you can do something like: Bur-Mun; Mar S Par-Bur; Par-Bur. Even though Bur is moving, someone will need three or more supports to get into Bur. And you can't dislodge your own units.
2

Percy Williams
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:22 pm
Location: Not Australia
Karma: 389

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#12 Post by Percy Williams » Sat May 11, 2019 3:01 pm

Question: so I had Fleet in Marseilles, and the was an army in Spain.there was also a unit in Burgundy. I attack Spain, hoping to cut support move on me, but despite Spain being the supporting unit, support was not cut, and the unit in Burgundy takes Marseilles. Why did this happen?

Squigs44
Developer
Developer
Posts: 2654
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:50 pm
Location: America
Karma: 776

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#13 Post by Squigs44 » Sat May 11, 2019 7:18 pm

Percy Williams wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:01 pm
Question: so I had Fleet in Marseilles, and the was an army in Spain.there was also a unit in Burgundy. I attack Spain, hoping to cut support move on me, but despite Spain being the supporting unit, support was not cut, and the unit in Burgundy takes Marseilles. Why did this happen?
Was the unit attacking Spain and cutting support Marseilles? A unit cannot cut support for an attack on itself.
1

FlaviusAetius
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:15 am
Karma: 99

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#14 Post by FlaviusAetius » Sat May 11, 2019 9:57 pm

you have to think of it in numbers if you have 2 units versus 1 unit, the 2 units will always win, no matter what the 1 unit does

Percy Williams
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:22 pm
Location: Not Australia
Karma: 389

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#15 Post by Percy Williams » Sat May 11, 2019 11:41 pm

Squigs44 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 7:18 pm
Percy Williams wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:01 pm
Question: so I had Fleet in Marseilles, and the was an army in Spain.there was also a unit in Burgundy. I attack Spain, hoping to cut support move on me, but despite Spain being the supporting unit, support was not cut, and the unit in Burgundy takes Marseilles. Why did this happen?
Was the unit attacking Spain and cutting support Marseilles? A unit cannot cut support for an attack on itself.
Can you link that rule for me? It was cutting support against Marseilles, but I've never heard of that rule before. I'd love to read up on it.

Squigs44
Developer
Developer
Posts: 2654
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:50 pm
Location: America
Karma: 776

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#16 Post by Squigs44 » Sun May 12, 2019 1:04 am

Percy Williams wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 11:41 pm
Squigs44 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 7:18 pm
Percy Williams wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:01 pm
Question: so I had Fleet in Marseilles, and the was an army in Spain.there was also a unit in Burgundy. I attack Spain, hoping to cut support move on me, but despite Spain being the supporting unit, support was not cut, and the unit in Burgundy takes Marseilles. Why did this happen?
Was the unit attacking Spain and cutting support Marseilles? A unit cannot cut support for an attack on itself.
Can you link that rule for me? It was cutting support against Marseilles, but I've never heard of that rule before. I'd love to read up on it.
Sure. The complete rulebook is listed in the FAQ: http://webdiplomacy.net/faq.php
It's under the tab that says something like I want to learn all the rules or something. In that PDF, go to page 10 for cutting support. Diagram 16 is especially useful in your scenario
2

Squigs44
Developer
Developer
Posts: 2654
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:50 pm
Location: America
Karma: 776

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#17 Post by Squigs44 » Sun May 12, 2019 1:53 am

The FAQ just got redone, so it's under the tab saying I want to learn how to play or something along those lines. The link is Avalon Hills rulebook
2

jmo1121109
Developer
Developer
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:20 pm
Karma: 1912
Contact:

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#18 Post by jmo1121109 » Sun May 12, 2019 3:21 am

Percy Williams wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 11:41 pm
Squigs44 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 7:18 pm
Percy Williams wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:01 pm
Question: so I had Fleet in Marseilles, and the was an army in Spain.there was also a unit in Burgundy. I attack Spain, hoping to cut support move on me, but despite Spain being the supporting unit, support was not cut, and the unit in Burgundy takes Marseilles. Why did this happen?
Was the unit attacking Spain and cutting support Marseilles? A unit cannot cut support for an attack on itself.
Can you link that rule for me? It was cutting support against Marseilles, but I've never heard of that rule before. I'd love to read up on it.
All Adjudicator rules are outlined on this page with links to the rules for processing games that all online diplomacy sites are *supposed* to follow.
http://webdiplomacy.net/datc.php#section4
6.D.15 - Passed
TEST CASE, DEFENDER CAN NOT CUT SUPPORT FOR ATTACK ON ITSELF
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/L.B.Kruijswijk/#6.D.15
1

TrPrado
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:22 pm
Location: OOOOOOKLAHOMA WHERE THE WIND COMES SWEEPING DOWN THE PLAIN
Karma: 337
Contact:

Re: why are my support holds failing??

#19 Post by TrPrado » Mon May 13, 2019 6:03 am

I love every time the DATC gets a shoutout :-D

It helped me learn the rules as well as I know them
1

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests