Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

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Mercy
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#61 Post by Mercy » Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:22 pm

Great job! Awesome to have ratings integrated in the site!

Two suggestions/bug reports:

1. The name of a Ghost Rating category is not always correct. For example, the category 'Ghost Rating Full Press' only covers Full Press games on the classic map that are non-live instead of all full press games on all variants. If I am not mistaken, though, the category 'Ghost Rating Gunboat' may cover live games. It is very confusing when the names are not correct.

2. There are six different categories under 'Ranking info'. There are also six different categories under 'Game stats'. It would be nice if the categories were the same, but they are not. For instance, under 'Game stats' there is a category for Classic press games, but not under 'Ranking info'. Under 'Ranking info', there is a category for Classic non-live full press games, but not under 'Game stats'. Consistency would be nice.
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Squigs44
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#62 Post by Squigs44 » Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:48 pm

Regarding naming of the categories, we opted to stick with the shorter names rather than have the category names be whole sentences explaining exactly what goes in a category and why. We do have a page that explains exactly what goes in each category, which you can access in the menu under Ghost Ratings. I'm sorry but we are not going to be changing "Full Press" to "Full Press + Rulebook / Classic / Non-Live / SoS + DSS / Non-bot / At least 3 turns"
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Mercy
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#63 Post by Mercy » Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:15 am

Squigs, thanks for the link.

The different categories under 'Game Stats' are clear. For example, under the category 'Classic Press' you see all Classic press games. Easy. If it can be done for the categories under 'Game stats', why not for 'Ranking info'? Obviously you don't need to specify that you don't count unranked games (duh) and bot games, and that you discount games that are shorter than 3 turns is not crucial information. On the other hand, whether you count live games and games from other variant is important to know.

Also, the information that is left out leads to additional confusion because it is not the same everywhere. For example, the category 'Full Press' is actually "Full Press + Rulebook / Classic / Non-Live". It would then be convenient if similarly, the category 'Gunboat' was actually "Gunboat / Classic / Non-Live". But no, 'Gunboat' is actually just Gunboat.
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Yonni
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#64 Post by Yonni » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:21 pm

Squigs, I think the point that's being made is that unifying the GR and game stat categories would add a lot of clarity. How they're named and explained is obviously tricky and completely up to you.

Does the code allow for mouseover events? That would be a very clean way to explain that FP excludes live games, for instance.
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Squigs44
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#65 Post by Squigs44 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:11 pm

Okay I think I understand now.

The issue here is that the GR categories have been in existence for decades now. I did not determine what goes in each category, or how they are made (trust me, I would have done things differently if setting up a brand new ranking system). So we can't just change the categories to match the other ones without disrupting what users are used to seeing for a decade now.

We could potentially change the non GR stats, but I personally think trying to match that would actually cause more confusion by complicating those categories, although this is probably a matter of debate. Those stats are an independent project to GR, so that also complicates things on our end.

People weren't complaining about clarity when GR was a magic number on a spreadsheet that no one understood. Even the people who thought they knew how GR worked didn't realize that the script had a couple hiccups in it and it wasn't quite right.

I do appreciate the feedback though, and there are a couple things we could probably do to clear up confusion. It's a tricky system and we are doing our best to make it more accessible in any way we can
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Yonni
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#66 Post by Yonni » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:27 pm

Squigs44 wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:11 pm
The issue here is that the GR categories have been in existence for decades now. I did not determine what goes in each category, or how they are made (trust me, I would have done things differently if setting up a brand new ranking system). So we can't just change the categories to match the other ones without disrupting what users are used to seeing for a decade now.
I don't think anyone will really complain. The numbers just changed a little bit during this implementation and there wasn't some uproar. I think you'd be fine making tweaks now. (In fact, imo, you'd be fine making it a better rating system in general but that's for another topic).

From seeing how people use GR in the forums, I think people care about the following categories:

Overall (everything under the sun)
Classic (FP/Rulebook, classic map, non-live)
Gunboat (classic map no-press)
1v1
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#67 Post by TheFlyingBoat » Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:16 pm

Yonni wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:27 pm
Squigs44 wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:11 pm
The issue here is that the GR categories have been in existence for decades now. I did not determine what goes in each category, or how they are made (trust me, I would have done things differently if setting up a brand new ranking system). So we can't just change the categories to match the other ones without disrupting what users are used to seeing for a decade now.
I don't think anyone will really complain. The numbers just changed a little bit during this implementation and there wasn't some uproar. I think you'd be fine making tweaks now. (In fact, imo, you'd be fine making it a better rating system in general but that's for another topic).

From seeing how people use GR in the forums, I think people care about the following categories:

Overall (everything under the sun)
Classic (FP/Rulebook, classic map, non-live)
Gunboat (classic map no-press)
1v1
My understanding was 1v1 GR didn't factor into overall GR, am I wrong on that?
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#68 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:23 pm

TheFlyingBoat wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:16 pm
Yonni wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:27 pm
Squigs44 wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:11 pm
The issue here is that the GR categories have been in existence for decades now. I did not determine what goes in each category, or how they are made (trust me, I would have done things differently if setting up a brand new ranking system). So we can't just change the categories to match the other ones without disrupting what users are used to seeing for a decade now.
I don't think anyone will really complain. The numbers just changed a little bit during this implementation and there wasn't some uproar. I think you'd be fine making tweaks now. (In fact, imo, you'd be fine making it a better rating system in general but that's for another topic).

From seeing how people use GR in the forums, I think people care about the following categories:

Overall (everything under the sun)
Classic (FP/Rulebook, classic map, non-live)
Gunboat (classic map no-press)
1v1
My understanding was 1v1 GR didn't factor into overall GR, am I wrong on that?
If you go to https://www.webdiplomacy.net/ghostRatings.php you can scroll down to the specific category and see exactly what factors into the rating.
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Claesar
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#69 Post by Claesar » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:16 am

Yonni wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:27 pm
From seeing how people use GR in the forums, I think people care about the following categories:

Overall (everything under the sun)
Classic (FP/Rulebook, classic map, non-live)
Gunboat (classic map no-press)
1v1
Live! I care about the Live GR!

Live is life.
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Yonni
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#70 Post by Yonni » Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:18 pm

Do you think live people care about the distinction between FP and GB? Do gunboaters care about the distinction between live and non-live GB?
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Mercy
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#71 Post by Mercy » Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:28 pm

I care about the distinction between live press and live gunboat games. They are very distinct.

When I look at my own past games:

LIVE PRESS (14 games)
Won: 43%
Drawn: 57%
Lost: 0%

LIVE GUNBOAT (12 games)
Won: 0%
Drawn: 50%
Lost: 50%

Games are harder when you cannot nicely ask your neighbours not to attack you.
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Yonni
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#72 Post by Yonni » Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:25 pm

43% win rate? Hot damn.

So I guess the only other question would be do gunboaters feel the need to make distinctions between live and non-live
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#73 Post by Claesar » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:25 pm

I do not. I rarely spend more than 5min on my non-live GB moves anyway..
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Doug7878
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#74 Post by Doug7878 » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:51 pm

On my profile page, under Ghost Rating Overall - It gives my October 2020 current GR of 134, and peak GR of 135, which match the October GR file (link below I hope)
However, it lists my "Position" as 3823.
My October Overall GR Rank is 764.

I haven't finished a game in either October or November.

I'm confused. Sorry if this has been addressed already.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... gr/pubhtml
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#75 Post by Peregrine Falcon » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:17 pm

Doug7878 wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:51 pm
On my profile page, under Ghost Rating Overall - It gives my October 2020 current GR of 134, and peak GR of 135, which match the October GR file (link below I hope)
However, it lists my "Position" as 3823.
My October Overall GR Rank is 764.

I haven't finished a game in either October or November.

I'm confused. Sorry if this has been addressed already.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... gr/pubhtml
The reason for the ranking difference is because the monthly GR used to only include players who had completed a game in the past 6 months. The newly integrated rankings include everyone ever on the site.
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Doug7878
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#76 Post by Doug7878 » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:35 pm

Ok. Thank you.
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#77 Post by jmo1121109 » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:38 am

Peregrine Falcon wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:17 pm
Doug7878 wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:51 pm
On my profile page, under Ghost Rating Overall - It gives my October 2020 current GR of 134, and peak GR of 135, which match the October GR file (link below I hope)
However, it lists my "Position" as 3823.
My October Overall GR Rank is 764.

I haven't finished a game in either October or November.

I'm confused. Sorry if this has been addressed already.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... gr/pubhtml
The reason for the ranking difference is because the monthly GR used to only include players who had completed a game in the past 6 months. The newly integrated rankings include everyone ever on the site.
We started with this, and wanted feedback if people wanted it open, 6 months only, both, etc. But for the moment it's like PF mentioned.
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#78 Post by kestasjk » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:03 pm

Nicely done guys
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chluke
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#79 Post by chluke » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:01 pm

Does it make sense, mathematically, that under the updated ratings, my Press/Live/Gboat rating are equal to/1 pt below/3 pts below my respective peak ratings, yet my overall rating is 27 points below my peak??

I love and thank you all for the automated ratings! Just wondering if this is a odd math points to bug in one of the calculations?
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Yonni
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Re: Development Update - Ghost Ratings and Profiles

#80 Post by Yonni » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:04 pm

I see no reason why that wouldn't be possible.
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