Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

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peterwiggin
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#121 Post by peterwiggin » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:09 pm

I'm still not sure how this got so big. There's no rule against breaking anon on the site or in the World Cup using any method that doesn't break a real-life law. That's actually why I originally decided to sit out this World Cup.

I'd also like to add that when I was a moderator, I remember docking people a lot of points for making cheating accusations in press. The mods are getting soft.
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peterwiggin
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#122 Post by peterwiggin » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:11 pm

What jmo did is nothing further than what was done in the past. Him posting it in global had no affect on the game.
I don't think you're giving jmo enough credit here.

Balki Bartokomous
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#123 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:19 pm

peterwiggin wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:09 pm
I'm still not sure how this got so big. There's no rule against breaking anon on the site or in the World Cup using any method that doesn't break a real-life law. That's actually why I originally decided to sit out this World Cup.

I'd also like to add that when I was a moderator, I remember docking people a lot of points for making cheating accusations in press. The mods are getting soft.
Just so you know, "breaking anon" is not the complaint against JMO. I'll explain my concern with what he did when I have a bit more time, and some of the emotion has passed.

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#124 Post by peterwiggin » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:25 pm

Just so you know, "breaking anon" is not the complaint against JMO.
Yes yes, I know, it's fair for anybody to break anon except the developers because of their secret dev methods that were totally unknown before this game. Really though, jmo shouldn't be allowed to play games because he's a spy robot who can break anon as easily as you or I breathe. It's just a really unfair advantage, and he should really focus on catching multis.

Oh shit, I'm giving away mod secrets. Please don't ban me!

jmo1121109
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#125 Post by jmo1121109 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:35 pm

Just to reiterate the general topic of multiple private pm’s with MM.

I do understand that it gave the appearance that I was leveraging privileged information, and think it's fair that that would concern people. I want to assure you all that the moderators, owners, and myself all take separating our powers and knowledge from the games we play very seriously, and I apologize for making it appear otherwise. That is why I was happy to prove to the owners with confirmable facts that I did not use privileged information during the game or tournament.

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#126 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:59 pm

peterwiggin wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:25 pm
Yes yes, I know, it's fair for anybody to break anon except the developers because of their secret dev methods that were totally unknown before this game. Really though, jmo shouldn't be allowed to play games because he's a spy robot who can break anon as easily as you or I breathe. It's just a really unfair advantage, and he should really focus on catching multis.

Oh shit, I'm giving away mod secrets. Please don't ban me!
That's not it either.

The complaint is that he made a post in May as Web Developer telling everyone that he fixed a bunch of glitches and that anonymous games are now actually anonymous.

Then he entered a game (a fun, competitive game, that had been going on for months), and he posted a glitch website to prove my identity 100%, without a doubt.

-- I am not saying Mods and Web Developers shouldn't play. Every other Mod I've seen has done a great job of being fair.

-- I am not saying breaking anonymity is against the rules. That's not the accusation.

I am saying it is unfair for a web developer to tell the community "Anon games are now actually Anon." Glitches are fixed! And then post a glitch website in a tournament final so there can be no doubt whatsoever about my identity. If there is a tool like that out in the world -- it is absolutely ridiculous that a Web Developer on this website can tell everyone that "Anon games are actually Anonymous" and then post that glitch tool in public press to out someone in the game.

If it is within the rules for someone to do that, the term "Anonymous Tournament" has no meaning whatsoever. And JMO's suggestion -- in May of this year -- that "Anonymous games are now actually Anonymous" is misleading and unfair to players who believed him when he said it.

JMO's defense seems to be..."yeah but I only said that gunboats are 100% secure...I also said it was theoretically possible to break anon in a press game." But, anyone who reads the initial post of this thread can see that defense for what it is. Utter rubbish. The clear suggestion of the post is "I fixed the bugs. Anonymous games are actually anonymous."

That's the complaint.

If you think that's all fine, and this is sour grapes, you're entitled to your opinion. But if you provide a defense, you should defend JMO for the correct thing. And if you want to call me a hypocrite, you should explain how I have ever done anything remotely like the actual accusation.
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#127 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:00 pm

With regard to JMO's post above -- again -- that is not the complaint either. At least, that is not my complaint.

Durga
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#128 Post by Durga » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:13 pm

I say we all blame goldfinger0303
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jmo1121109
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#129 Post by jmo1121109 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:20 pm

Yeah I see the concern in having a tournament intentionally allow breaking anon given that td also made posts in the anon thread to indicate he didn’t want people to break anon. At the end of the day the tournament allowed it, I didn’t gain in what I knew from working on anon changes and it’s seems like common sense that anything with a time stamp can’t be fully anon. Sorry you also didn’t view that as obvious. If you ask the mods to require clear descriptions on what is or isn’t allowed in tournaments they’d probably agree. Though emailing them is the only way to get official responses

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#130 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:07 pm

This will be my last post on this for a while. I apologize that I just can't stop.

Please stop blaming other people.

Above, you place blame on the TD and the Mods.

Let me say again, I don't have a problem with the Mods. And I don't have a problem with the TD.

You say "In the end, they allowed it." I have not heard any authority say "This is the end. What JMO did was fine, and there will be no penalty." I have not even lodged my complaint. So, let's not justify your actions by "in the end, they allowed it." We're not yet at the end. It was only revealed a few days ago that the person who posted the glitch website to reveal my identity 100% is the same person who posted a few months ago that he, as web developer, had fixed the glitches, and Anon games are now actually Anon.

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#131 Post by jmo1121109 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:47 pm

Okay so stop posting accusations on the forum then and go lodge a complaint? The concerns MM have posted were addressed by an investigation so please don’t imply I’m lying about that and ideally go back and actually read the post and note the point where I explain how gunboats are 100% anon and everything else is not.

Also please stop incorrectly referring to it as a glitch website. It makes you sound naive. It’s a piece of site functionality included in the open source software for a necessary purpose and fully searchable to the public.

Do also note I’m not blaming anyone. I’m stating why what I did was permissible and why others doing the same has also been permissible. If you weren’t so focused on assigning blame you might actually catch the real meaning in my posts.

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#132 Post by A_Tin_Can » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:50 pm

Whooo boy, this is off track.

Jmo's post doesn't say "bugs are fixed", it says "anon games work differently now". I don't have an opinion on whether the behaviour in game was right or wrong, but if the base of your issue is that he said something he didn't, I don't think your complaint is strong.

Either way, remember that Diplomacy press is for the game, not for forum posts. This means both for your post (you don't get to twist his words and call foul play), and his post (we shouldn't be lawyering over a site announcement to determine if he did something inappropriate in game - site announcements are not game press).

As others have pointed out, take complaints to the moderator team. All complaints are taken seriously there. Yes, even against other moderators.

However, if you're going to just complain about it on the forum - then not only are you breaking site rules, but people *are* going to think it's sour grapes.

(To the mods: I apologise for revealing the mod secret that all complaints are taken seriously)
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bo_sox48
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#133 Post by bo_sox48 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:58 pm

It’s okay, we like you too much to ban you.
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A_Tin_Can
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#134 Post by A_Tin_Can » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:06 pm

Woah, what a corrupt system 8-)
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Balki Bartokomous
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#135 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:05 am

A_Tin_Can wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:50 pm
Whooo boy, this is off track.

Jmo's post doesn't say "bugs are fixed", it says "anon games work differently now". I don't have an opinion on whether the behaviour in game was right or wrong, but if the base of your issue is that he said something he didn't, I don't think your complaint is strong.
...
However, if you're going to just complain about it on the forum - then not only are you breaking site rules, but people *are* going to think it's sour grapes.
If you think this is no big deal, sour grapes or whatever, then maybe I'm delusional. I felt like it was important to explain why I think this conduct was unfair and inappropriate.

I've explained what I believe, and I've generally been rebuffed. So...I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and this is a fair way to operate. You all are obviously free to run your website as you choose.

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#136 Post by Durga » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:19 am

I think ATC is inviting you to take your complaint to an official source. You said you have not even filed a complaint. What exactly do you want here? If it's a big deal and not sour grapes then the mod team is one email away.
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#137 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:30 am

Durga wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:19 am
I think ATC is inviting you to take your complaint to an official source. You said you have not even filed a complaint. What exactly do you want here? If it's a big deal and not sour grapes then the mod team is one email away.
Or if you don't trust the mods, go to http://www.webdiplomacy.net/rules.php and the section titled:
"Where to send
Email the moderators at webdipmod@gmail.com, not their personal addresses.
A Co-Owner can be contacted at zultar17@gmail.com, if you want to appeal an admin or mod decision."

ghug
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#138 Post by ghug » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:42 am

A few things.

First, the online users page being freely accessible is absolutely a bug and not a feature. "Glitch website", while crude, is more accurate than not.

Secondly, questioning whether something allowed by the rules should be allowed by the rules Is perfectly valid. We disallow cheating accusations in public in the general case because the mods have the information to determine their validity better than the masses, and people shouldn't be tried by the court of public opinion. The site deserves to be tried in the court of public opinion, and we should be fully open on matters like this, because our users deserve to know whether we're running the site well and fairly.

Thirdly, as a proud member of Team Sour Grapes™, I think jmo is guilty here only of being a tactless jackass. I was disappointed when this happened both because it reflected poorly on the site (the fact that we have to have this discussion at all is evidence of that) and because it was personally offensive to my team both in the obvious attack and in the continued sinister implications of our own wrongdoing, which I'm happy to discuss in full after the tournament is over. I do not, however, believe that he leveraged anything inappropriately to give himself an advantage in the game, and I think it's probably worth putting this to bed now.
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Yigg
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#139 Post by Yigg » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:55 am

Well, there's a lot to chew on here.

First, I would like to express my disappointment in that this anon-breaking conversation is drawing more interest than having an EoG discussion. It was a blast of a game full of top notch press, moves that defied conventional logic, and strategies that definitely merit debate. This is all far more fascinating than finger pointing. At least in my opinion.

Second, I want to make sure I understand Balki's complaint, as I aim to defend my friend, Jmo, correctly. The complaint is not that Jmo broke anonymity itself, but did so after having saying in May that "Anonymous games are now actually Anonymous," and that this statement is both misleading and unfair to players. If I am mistaken, please let me know so that I can amend my defense to accurately reflect the accusation.

Third, and getting to it, I think it's fair to start by mentally divorcing ourselves from interpreting anon-breaking as a sin. Balki has already agreed that it's not against the rules, so coloring the action negatively serves no purpose other than to color the argument. While I personally find anon-breaking abhorrent and unsportsmanlike, the act itself ought be considered neutral for purposes of this complaint. The heart of the matter is instead the actor. For example, had I not been subbed out of the game as the original France and broken anon in the game and then shared this information in press (as Jmo did), this would have been perfectly acceptable, yes? Of course. But that's not the issue. The issue is in this very thread, and I've spent some time reading what Jmo has written on it. He says in the beginning paragraph of entry #1, "I made the following changes (thanks to A_Tin_Can for doing the code review!) to make anonymous games actually anonymous." This statement certainly leaves the reader with the impression that anon games are in fact so. After this, he gives some detail on how this is accomplished. However, he goes on to say, "While there is still 1 vulnerability that makes breaking anon in non-gunboat games theoretically possible, gunboats games should now be 100% secure." Here, he indicates that the ability to break anon is still possible in non-gunboat games. So despite the measures that he has taken, he admits that the system still is vulnerable to someone dedicated to breaking anon. So the informed reader should walk away from Jmo's post feeling positive that while work towards defeating anon-breaking has made good progress, it is still possible to occur. Further in the thread, in entry #43, Jmo posts regarding the one vulnerability and his inability to stop it, "Unfortunately the fix is currently eluding me and Oli as it exists on vDip too so no timeline here." So if the reader is still following the thread, it should be clear that a 100% fix of anon-breaking is not possible at this time. Therefore, it seems clear to me after having looked at the words Jmo has written, that anyone believing that a non-gunboat game is immune to anon-breaking is reading an interpretation into text. I would agree that if the reader stopped at the end of his first paragraph, or list of changes, in entry #1, they would walk way with what Balki suggests in entry #126 as "The clear suggestion of the post is "I fixed the bugs. Anonymous games are actually anonymous." " However, it is not the fault of the author, Jmo, for a reader to misunderstand the entire message if they do not read all of it. I disagree with calling this defense "utter rubbish."

To address the act being unfair, I will grant that the act of breaking anon with the tool used would be unfair to players who themselves have not broken anonymity. It would also be unfair to conceal the method with which anon was broken. However, in reading the press from the game, Jmo specifically stated that he had indeed broken anon publicly, submitted the precise tools used to do so, and encouraged their use. To be deemed unfair, Jmo would have had to have used these tools without anyone else having the ability to do the same. Though other players indicated an unwillingness to use those tools, choosing not to use them does not grant Jmo an unfair advantage. And while we could argue that opening this game to such tools is unsportsmanlike, we have already agreed that the act itself is a neutral one. Therefore, I disagree with the complaint's assertion that Jmo's use of the tool was unfair.

With all due respect, Balki, I do not believe your complaint that Jmo was misleading and unfair is accurate.

Fourth, to ghug's suggestion that this issue be put to bed, I half agree. Further arguing and finger-pointing is simply that, and serves no real purpose. That said, it would be tremendously unfair and disrespectful to Balki to make an argument, and then provide no opportunity to offer a rebuttal by stating that we should no longer argue about it. So I would welcome further thought. But the real question we should be discussing is where the site goes from here. I personally dislike anon-breaking, meta, cheating, and all that nonsense. I think it makes this place worse, not better. Do we learn from the controversy of this Tournament? Should we enact stricter rules against anon-breaking and the like? What do we do about our site? Our game? I don't want this to be a lost opportunity to address how to make this place a more attractive destination for Diplomacy. So yeah. I'd say we should listen, and stop blaming each other. Maybe start looking at fixing problems and creating a positive culture, if such a thing is even possible online. That's what I'm going to try and do. It'd be pretty awesome for everyone, especially Cascadia and the Greatest Lakes, to come with me.
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