MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[Donny Dude]

It could be celaph as scum knew he would not be killed?
But Bona's ties up in last few minutes makes that unlikely.

I think this is likely.

K ,but that makes it also hard to look at too for last minute.
Sure quick to validate my theory.
I don't know if celaph would have moved anyways.
Actually looking at votes without post context, maniac and Jasnah moved to celaph from rdr. I don't think celaph is on the same team with those two. I would expect lfi to be voted for there.
Ezio's vote looks more like protection though by tying it up from a holding stance.

[Hamilton Brian]

With 16 minutes left, why did you start a new wagon on celaph instead of going back to rdrivera or lfischl?

That really was the beginning of the Bunny wagon deflation. Not entirely off Bunny but from other wagons. That was really the end of the Bunny wagon.

[kgray]

I have a similar read too.

Same question, Donny. Is she towny because she's obnoxious or for other reasons?

Mostly the first, seems hard to replicate as scum.
What do you think kgray?

I am not townreading her for her strong personality. From what I know of her I expect that she would act this way completely regardless of her alignment.

I question whether scum would refuse to even attempt to give any explanations of reads, which makes her play somewhat frustrating but also slightly towny (even though I think it's anti-town). It is possible she assumed she could get away with this based on reputation or wifom, but I don't scumread her in general.

So I'm leaning town, but not because of her personality, and I'm hoping she'll start explaining her reads.

[kgray]

?

It could be celaph as scum knew he would not be killed?
But Bona's ties up in last few minutes makes that unlikely.

Yeah, I don't think it's likely celaph was feeling particularly comfortable as a wagon that close to EOD even if he's got a bunch of teammates who were online to potentially save him.

My point isn't that he felt confident that he wouldn't die. I actually think he felt resigned to dying, but didn't use his last few minutes in the pro-town way that I'd expect from town!celaph based on previous experience.

[kgray]

But maybe I should ask him. @Celaph, how come you weren't pushing back against your wagon more? Why didn't you give your reads when you were on the block? What are your reads?

[kgray]

So likely that Celaph is town, or still pretty inconclusive?

I guess if I am to work with my logic, Celaph as scum could claim, and there'd be repercussions if caught in the lie. As town, no need to give scum a better NK pool?

Bozo is using this to townread celaph. I am not as convinced, because I think he could have been hoping the vote would swing in his favor and not wanting to get caught in a lie.

It is possible celaph is SK or scum with no teammates or only 1 teammate, where there would be no value in forcing a CC.

Why does having 1 teammate mean there's no value in forcing a CC? Wouldn't a CC still be helpful to scum?

[ghug]

Bozo is using this to townread celaph. I am not as convinced, because I think he could have been hoping the vote would swing in his favor and not wanting to get caught in a lie.

It is possible celaph is SK or scum with no teammates or only 1 teammate, where there would be no value in forcing a CC.

Why does having 1 teammate mean there's no value in forcing a CC? Wouldn't a CC still be helpful to scum?

If you're closer to alone on a team, outing a PR becomes less worth your own life.

[kgray]

In M62, celaph's only post in the last 19 minutes of D5 was his post where he gave reads.

Yes, because he spent that time typing up his reads... That's my point. He was putting effort there as he was on the block because he knew his job was to help solve. Here he didn't do that.

With 16 minutes left, why did you start a new wagon on celaph instead of going back to rdrivera or lfischl?

There was pushback against the Rivera wagon and I wasn't strongly scumreading either him or lfischl. I was just seeing what would happen, and trying to find someone who I wasn't townreading and who others were scumreading. Celaph checked those boxes.

[kgray]

It is possible celaph is SK or scum with no teammates or only 1 teammate, where there would be no value in forcing a CC.

Why does having 1 teammate mean there's no value in forcing a CC? Wouldn't a CC still be helpful to scum?

If you're closer to alone on a team, outing a PR becomes less worth your own life.

Thanks bozo!

(but actually thanks, that makes sense)

[celaph]

What do you mean, ghug cared about the outcome of the vote? You think he had a strong preference of who was killed?

Less who was killed and more that someone died. My gut is that scum ghug is happy to sit on my wagon. To answer @ezio's follow up question: It requires boldness and confidence to put your name out there at the end of the vote. He risks looking bad until I flip. You've played in different games than me, but the scum I've played with haven't tended to be that bold.

Slightly unrelated, I would like to add Bona to this list of voting people making them look good. I intentionally left him off originally because I was taken aback by his change in tone this night, but on second thought I think the town motivations for doing so are just as strong, if not stronger, than the scum ones.

I think it'd look really suspicious for ghug to be completely uninvolved/uninterested at EOD, so I'd never expect scum!ghug to just sit on your wagon and watch. And I think not caring who is killed, and just that someone dies, is pretty scummy. If you're town (or even if you're scum but ghug isn't in your faction), you should find it incredibly suspicious that he didn't care much which of you or lfischl died. The fact that you're not coming to that conclusion really bothers me.

You could argue that this is a case where having two games of experience is worse than none, but last game disagrees with you on that. The vote was tied with <1 left and ghug sat there doing nothing.
Why do you think not caring who dies (obviously restricted to the people on the chopping block) is scummy? If I think that the two I'm choosing between have similar likelihoods of being scum then I much prefer the info from either dying than ending in a tie.

[celaph]

I... could not be bothered doing a full reread of bunny. Too many posts. I read about half of it and skimmed the rest. Turns out I agree with what bb and kgray and maybe ghug said, most of his posts were largely inconsequential, and didn't really exhibit any townie qualities. I still think he had some decent posts though, and there wasn't anything that seemed off really. I'd townlean him naturally. This is however coming from a place of not actually including his meta in my read, because I seem to have forgotten it myself. Other people have said this seems more like standard scum!bunny behaviour though, so I'm not so sure. His anger tonight felt slightly off, especially compared to angry bb or the way I tend to do angry rants. Maybe that's the way he does anger posts though, but it doesn't sit quite right at the moment.

If the underlined segment is referring to me, you should take that with a large grain of salt.

I was also advocating that Bunny's behavior feels off.

[Hamilton Brian]

What's the spread on those of us that are PST or over in Australia? Seems like there are many people that we'd like to hear from. Mania. Vecna. Damo. Jasnah. Ezio. Celaph.

[Hamilton Brian]

Meh, crosspost. Good to see you Celaph. Seems there might be some questions about why you didn't claim at EOD. How different is your style in this game from previous games? And why?

[damo666]

What's the spread on those of us that are PST or over in Australia? Seems like there are many people that we'd like to hear from. Mania. Vecna. Damo. Jasnah. Ezio. Celaph.

Will post again after the night's results if I survive. I've got nothing meaningful to offer if I don't.

[ghug]

What's the spread on those of us that are PST or over in Australia? Seems like there are many people that we'd like to hear from. Mania. Vecna. Damo. Jasnah. Ezio. Celaph.

Maniac, damo, and Vecna are in Europe (though Vecna's an hour ahead). Ezio is PST.

[rdrivera2005]

OK. Just wondered if it would make you move to another conclusion but it doesn't sound like it. Fair enough.

I am still reading from behind but I am assuming you've been asked already your most likely town and your scumreads?

I am struggling with scumreads. I would say Maniac and HR, but it's really a gut feeling.

Townreads: Kgray, Bona, Bunny, Bob and Brain are my top townreads. A lot of Bs.

Do you think Maniac is acting differently to how he's been acting in the past few games as town?

Why do you townread Bunny?

Maniac is hard to read, I read him wrong on D1 last game, but what is making me scumread him is the lack of engagement this time. Like he doesn't want to stir the pot as usual to avoid being scumread. Town Maniac is usually more engaged and unpredictable.

Bunny I am townreading for the claim and his reactions post EOD. I findc they kind of irritation hard to fake. If he is scum he sealed his faith as he will need to explain why he isn't the NK sooner or later.

[jasnah]

@ brainbomb is talking out of his ass. Claims I did nothing D1 when I gave several reads of who was town and strongly pushed two wagons that I believed were likely to be scum, then finally pushed for the one of the two viable choices at EOD to try to make sure there was no tie. You seem to have spam confused with substance, a common mistake here.

@ghug Played lots of mafia on another site years ago, more recently played lots of The Resistance Avalon

@HB I'm GMT but revising for finals, which I would like to pass, so unfortunately I can't spend the whole day monitoring this thread

@ kgray Have we played together? I know like two people in this game. Unless some of you are also involved with the fringe community of Diplomacy, I don't know what reputation I could have carried in.

[bozotheclown]

Bozo is using this to townread celaph. I am not as convinced, because I think he could have been hoping the vote would swing in his favor and not wanting to get caught in a lie.

It is possible celaph is SK or scum with no teammates or only 1 teammate, where there would be no value in forcing a CC.

Why does having 1 teammate mean there's no value in forcing a CC? Wouldn't a CC still be helpful to scum?

With only 1 teammate, it would probably be better to take the chance of surviving than making a claim that will result in eventually getting DKed and counting on your teammate to win the game.

[bozotheclown]

I am struggling with scumreads. I would say Maniac and HR, but it's really a gut feeling.

Townreads: Kgray, Bona, Bunny, Bob and Brain are my top townreads. A lot of Bs.

Do you think Maniac is acting differently to how he's been acting in the past few games as town?

Why do you townread Bunny?

Maniac is hard to read, I read him wrong on D1 last game, but what is making me scumread him is the lack of engagement this time. Like he doesn't want to stir the pot as usual to avoid being scumread. Town Maniac is usually more engaged and unpredictable.

Bunny I am townreading for the claim and his reactions post EOD. I findc they kind of irritation hard to fake. If he is scum he sealed his faith as he will need to explain why he isn't the NK sooner or later.

You did not vote for Maniac D1 last game (M63) when Maniac was the D1 DK, but you did vote for Maniac D1 in M62 and M60.

[rdrivera2005]

Do you think Maniac is acting differently to how he's been acting in the past few games as town?

Why do you townread Bunny?

Maniac is hard to read, I read him wrong on D1 last game, but what is making me scumread him is the lack of engagement this time. Like he doesn't want to stir the pot as usual to avoid being scumread. Town Maniac is usually more engaged and unpredictable.

Bunny I am townreading for the claim and his reactions post EOD. I findc they kind of irritation hard to fake. If he is scum he sealed his faith as he will need to explain why he isn't the NK sooner or later.

You did not vote for Maniac D1 last game (M63) when Maniac was the D1 DK, but you did vote for Maniac D1 in M62 and M60.

I always count with you to correct my shitty memories.