MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[kgray]

I want people to explain why ghug & I were the only people trying to prevent a tie there. Everyone who was present had better come up with a good reason for sitting back and letting Bona pull that shit - The only reason it was close is because none of the rest of you shifted

This is a lot of righteous indignation coming from someone who was on a vanity Rivera wagon with one minute to go, especially considering you didn't even strongly scumread Rivera.

That's a good point. I was re-reading EOD and HR vote on me looked really weird as we never interacted, I was offline and was obviously softing a PR. Not a vote I expect from HR closer to EOD.

What's worse is that only an hour earlier he'd been dismissing my case against you because it was similar to one he made against you last game when you were town.

[bozotheclown]

kgray and Hamilton, are you still refusing to answer?

Ezio and Macca, are you still ignoring this?

Bob, are you still not saying what non-town faction you discarded?

We can't trust anything from now on with the claims cause they could have discussed it in their QT

Scum would still be taking a chance making fake claims.

[kgray]

Btw, while on page 79 I will say lfischl looked pretty bad at that point, voting him was very reasonable, and more natural than rdr.

So what does this tell you about the people that took the less "natural" route and voted Rivera instead of lfischl, who was town?

[kgray]

Because I made very little effort D1 and some of the effort I tried was useless (the Macca thing).

I confess that the feeling I will be NKed early again after this discard claim thing is also making me avoid dispending too much energy on D1.

Huh. I was not under the impression you put any effort at all into your Macca read

I did ISOed they. They, Maniac, Demon and the guy who were killed (hard to write). I told it was a low effort.

Can you explain why you think what Maniac did was scummy, and how it's different from how he's played as town the past few games?

[Hamilton Brian]

But we didn't know it was joat or no kill. All everyone could see was lurking scummy-looking person, so the options were lurking scummy-looking person or no kill. We made the best decision with the information we had.

Still getting through the posts from last night/early morning. I agree with Bona here. We had no information. Such a small set of posts, no claim. Seems like an avarage D1 miskill.

Have we got information from the voting? MAybe; better minds than mine have been doing that work, notably brainbomb and kgray. THis wasn't the best or ideal outcome, but it is what it is.

[kgray]

This is a lot of righteous indignation coming from someone who was on a vanity Rivera wagon with one minute to go, especially considering you didn't even strongly scumread Rivera.

That's a good point. I was re-reading EOD and HR vote on me looked really weird as we never interacted, I was offline and was obviously softing a PR. Not a vote I expect from HR closer to EOD.

A) I have no idea how or where you were softing a PR
B) Softing a PR in a setup like this is such a massively wide open goal that I couldn't care less if someone does it
C) I was on you because I didn't like either the Fisch or Bunny wagons and preferred you

For most of the time you were voting Rivera, celaph was a bigger wagon than flischl. Why did you prefer Rivera to celaph? Why did you pick lfischl over celaph when you moved off of Rivera, and why didn't you interact with the celaph wagon in any meaningful way? If you saw Rivera doing similar things to what he did as town last game, why doesn't that put him as more of a townlean than celaph, especially when you pointed out his bad vote for lfischl?

[Hamilton Brian]

What specifically about ghug's and HR's votes makes them look good?

I'll give you a hint why cel thinks they're good votes: They were not on cel.


[/quote]

Is there an insinuation that one might pull or extend from that line of thinking?

[kgray]

Okay, my gut is actually telling me that Bunny is town. Let's do ##vote celaph instead.

OK, this is where it started.

Where the hell did celaph come from? It bewilders me. This post happens, followed by a set of variously clothed posts.

@kgray, what?

There had been people talking about scumreading celaph, I could see their points, and I didn't have any strong scumreads. I wasn't sold on any other wagon, so I just proposed this one. I didn't have a strong case and I haven't reread him, so a lot of it was just sort of instinct and trying to come up with a better option.

[jasnah]

I entirely back kgray's initiation of the celaph wagon. Every town in D1 should have been trying to start their own wagon as that would have if successful ensured the 100% town from their own perspective, themselves, made it through the day, which is a win for town. And if unsuccessful then still becoming a proponent of a slightly more preferred wagon ensures that scum aren't the only ones making pushes. There were plenty of opportunities to build up momentum for various other wagons during the day and people who spend time obsessing over those who attempted to get info for town are malicious or counterproductive

[Hamilton Brian]

I don't believe in townslips. If I did this wouldn't be one. What exactly was your reasoning here?

As I continue this slow plod. May or may not be relevant to this particular game. Are you saying you don't believe in townslips happening? If they do "happen" they are less accidental and more deliberate? If someone you felt a 6 on a ten point scale, with 1 being identified scum, 10 being identified town...and they "slipped," would your lean on them decrease to a 5?

[kgray]

This.

It’s like my 7 year old explaining to me that there are unbeatable strategies in among us and various board games and card games.

Okay. Bunny is doing his "prop up the new player and then dismiss them" schtick. Every time I've noticed this, he's been scum.

What exactly is this thing of which you speak? It didn't seem particularly like a dismissal of the player to me. Nor did it seem particularly like propping them up. What exactly do you mean by these two actions?

In my first game, I was town and Bunny was scum, and he flip-flopped between buddying-type compliments of me and aggressively dismissing my reads. It was extremely frustrating so I remember it pretty clearly. He did a similar (but less intense) thing with one of the new players (aaro?) two games ago, and the way he compared jasnah to his kid here after calling her clever earlier felt like that same behavior.

It's just something I associate with scum!Bunny, although I don't think it's impossible that he also does this as town. I will freely admit that I generally default to scumreading Bunny.

[kgray]

I... could not be bothered doing a full reread of bunny. Too many posts. I read about half of it and skimmed the rest. Turns out I agree with what bb and kgray and maybe ghug said, most of his posts were largely inconsequential, and didn't really exhibit any townie qualities. I still think he had some decent posts though, and there wasn't anything that seemed off really. I'd townlean him naturally. This is however coming from a place of not actually including his meta in my read, because I seem to have forgotten it myself. Other people have said this seems more like standard scum!bunny behaviour though, so I'm not so sure. His anger tonight felt slightly off, especially compared to angry bb or the way I tend to do angry rants. Maybe that's the way he does anger posts though, but it doesn't sit quite right at the moment.

If the underlined segment is referring to me, you should take that with a large grain of salt.

[jasnah]

@kgray I wrote at one point I was ambivalent on Bunny and it still seems he's written a lot, most of anyone, but said very little. I would wagon on him, amongst others, tomorrow if I'm still alive.

I do have a feeling I may be silenced by the scum tonight though. If you find a bullet through my head in the morning make sure to read the words of wisdom I've left the town in case I should suffer an untimely accident

[Hamilton Brian]

And I disagree with your take. Bona play have been extremely anti-town and he refuses to listen or acknowledge this is a team game (if he is town) and I fully understand Bunny indignation.

Would you go so far as suggesting Bona is scum, or at least a strong scum lean? There are some who are suggesting Bona's remorse has (as far as I've read) changed their opinion of them.

[kgray]

I am sorry I missed EOD. I would not have had much of a preference between lfischl and celaph. Approaching EOD it looked like it was VT vs VT, I was surprising to see that lfischl was the JOAT.

celaph came very close to being the DK without claiming anything besides VT, if he is not town he was taking a chance that he would survive when he could have claimed something to survive D1 and forced a CC, or possibly get lucky and claim a town PR that was not dealt.

Bonatogether's voting was supposedly all about forcing ties and making closer wagons, but he violated this 2 times with regard to rdrivera. If rdrivera is scum, Bonatogether could be his partner.

celaph's wagon came up pretty quick, so I would not take him not claiming PR as evidence that he is actually a VT.

You think that bona breaking a tie to put Rivera in the lead makes him likely to be Rivera's partner?

[kgray]

kgray and Hamilton, are you still refusing to answer?

I don't see any point in revealing anything at the moment.

[Hellenic Riot]

That's a good point. I was re-reading EOD and HR vote on me looked really weird as we never interacted, I was offline and was obviously softing a PR. Not a vote I expect from HR closer to EOD.

A) I have no idea how or where you were softing a PR
B) Softing a PR in a setup like this is such a massively wide open goal that I couldn't care less if someone does it
C) I was on you because I didn't like either the Fisch or Bunny wagons and preferred you

For most of the time you were voting Rivera, celaph was a bigger wagon than flischl. Why did you prefer Rivera to celaph? Why did you pick lfischl over celaph when you moved off of Rivera, and why didn't you interact with the celaph wagon in any meaningful way? If you saw Rivera doing similar things to what he did as town last game, why doesn't that put him as more of a townlean than celaph, especially when you pointed out his bad vote for lfischl?

When I voted Rdrivera, celaph had zero votes. I then asked for a case on celaph because I'd seen nothing of the sort in advance of the flashwagon forming there. Ironically the only person who gave any sort of reasonable point there was Bona; but I didn't really feel that celaph was that different to normal and I also feel that he's been a pretty decent (though not very scary, sorry ghug) player who would be more useful to keep around than lfischl - I didn't like either option though.

As I said at the time, I didn't really disagree with the case on rdrivera and the fact he was acting the same as last game wasn't actually towntell, because in both d1's he essentially did nothing and made no reads. I didn't like going after him based solely on that because that's what I did last game - And I was wrong. But when it came to a point where there were three options (rdrivera, lfischl, and Bunny) then I absolutely preferred rdrivera to the other two. And I still preferred him to celaph, too.

[kgray]

When I voted Rdrivera, celaph had zero votes. I then asked for a case on celaph because I'd seen nothing of the sort in advance of the flashwagon forming there. Ironically the only person who gave any sort of reasonable point there was Bona; but I didn't really feel that celaph was that different to normal and I also feel that he's been a pretty decent (though not very scary, sorry ghug) player who would be more useful to keep around than lfischl - I didn't like either option though.

As I said at the time, I didn't really disagree with the case on rdrivera and the fact he was acting the same as last game wasn't actually towntell, because in both d1's he essentially did nothing and made no reads. I didn't like going after him based solely on that because that's what I did last game - And I was wrong. But when it came to a point where there were three options (rdrivera, lfischl, and Bunny) then I absolutely preferred rdrivera to the other two. And I still preferred him to celaph, too.

Assuming you also think Rivera is a decent player, why did you prefer Rivera to celaph if you were null on both of them? Why is celaph more useful to keep around than lfischl, but Rivera isn't?

And none of this explains your (fake, imo) outrage that people weren't trying to prevent a tie when you stayed away from the top two wagons for the ten minutes before EOD.

[Hellenic Riot]

When I voted Rdrivera, celaph had zero votes. I then asked for a case on celaph because I'd seen nothing of the sort in advance of the flashwagon forming there. Ironically the only person who gave any sort of reasonable point there was Bona; but I didn't really feel that celaph was that different to normal and I also feel that he's been a pretty decent (though not very scary, sorry ghug) player who would be more useful to keep around than lfischl - I didn't like either option though.

As I said at the time, I didn't really disagree with the case on rdrivera and the fact he was acting the same as last game wasn't actually towntell, because in both d1's he essentially did nothing and made no reads. I didn't like going after him based solely on that because that's what I did last game - And I was wrong. But when it came to a point where there were three options (rdrivera, lfischl, and Bunny) then I absolutely preferred rdrivera to the other two. And I still preferred him to celaph, too.

Assuming you also think Rivera is a decent player, why did you prefer Rivera to celaph if you were null on both of them? Why is celaph more useful to keep around than lfischl, but Rivera isn't?

And none of this explains your (fake, imo) outrage that people weren't trying to prevent a tie when you stayed away from the top two wagons for the ten minutes before EOD.

Rdrivera has an unfortunate habit of scumreading me in almost every single game we play, so I don't especially subscribe to that first point

It's quite simple: I was not concerned about there being a possibility of a tie even when the vote was tied by ghug, because it only took one person to break it. When Bona started pulling his shit that equation drastically changed, so I started actively trying to prevent it - As did ghug. I really do not understand why nobody else was sparked into action by that, especially as every single player except for Bozo/Vecna/Macca/rdrivera and apparently Bob was present (And Bob turned up immediately afterward). Two people out of 16 is a pretty pathetic level of engagement and I really can't understand why so many people were happy to coast to a tie there

[brainbomb]

Maybe I think differently but I admire players who challenge why people vote them. I appreciate that if I am going to push a player they will attack that vote at its onset, not wait til EOD to let it fester. hesitation on being pressured in my mind is the hope that pressure will drift away on its own. Bunny didnt care about being voted most of day 1. Until it suddenly mattered. And then he was very emotional about actually being pushed at all. To me this shows he just wanted everyone to forget about him, even though he had almost 500 posts day 1.

if someone votes me I dont always care. i dont always get annoyed. In fact I am often blind to scum voting me because I only get triggered by certain players voting me. I was annoyed maniac voted me because it just felt lame. ghug voting me he at least had reasons but it was still alot of the same crap he does to me every game. Bona voting me was frustrating because he implied I was just expendable which I dont think i am regardless of role. As town I always wanna die by NK, never by day elim. Anyone who knows me knows that my entire effort in mafia is to eat the nk and exit gracefully.

I push players and I do try to irk them. I want reactions. I do want to be challenged. But you notice I dont vote people and call them worthless. I vote them because I strongly feel they really gotta go. In the case of Bunny I was actively working to get him or rdrivera killed at EOD.

I waivered on Rivera because of how many people I distrusted were leaping onto him. Bunny I still think can definetely be lying about it all because its pretty ridiculous to wait until 3 minutes are left to then act like pressure is unexpected. Pressure had been of and on for bunny all day, and he acted as if he was a victim. HR mostly bailed him out on this issue by also claiming a scum role