M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[Donny Dude]

fuck I just realized something

##call gm: can the universal backup inherit the power from the restless spirit?

Thatd be really really bad if scum managed to get their hands on that

(sorry if this was discussed already)

Apologies, I have been busy doing homework.
Going through on bot on call gms.
I don't believe I can answer this question.
Regarding a call gm by Teacon page 88, I believe it is both ub and what role they may have adopted. Though Worcej can clarify this better than I.
I think that is all of them.
Gm Note
Fluminator may vote for who he wants. He is however limited to the vote format which I won't do since the bot may trigger but y'all know it.
Gm note
I may not be around for this eod, but Worcej should be.

[Jamiet99uk]

@Vecna: HR is blatant as scum, you can see that, right?

I agree that HR is not being helpful, but not sure if he is scum.

I nailed him last game he was scum (and nobody believed me) because he was looking like town but not really scum hunting or pushing his reads, more sitting back making good questions and subtly pushing misskills. I don't see why scum HR would play the way he is playing this game.

Yeah, the problem is.....HR mightve just seen how Durga did it last game and hope he also gets a pass for the first 2 days.

I dno. Theres just nothing to work with. Lurking is such a lame-ass thing to do when used as a strategy.

It's not just about lurking. Please actually read my actual posts about HR.

[Vecna]

Regardless, optimal mafia strategy by far is this:

Recruit
take 3 roles out of these 4: Tracker 1, Tracker 2, Universal backup, Diarist

Give a useless town bulletproof N1 to offset the point imbalance (or do the white flag shit if you have skilled players so you have some points leftover for roleblocks or w/e)

All this nonsense of hunting in the low point roles is -bad-. Those are likely not what mafia have.

Just imagine it like this: Scum have low numbers. They need a way to navigate through the PR minefield. They need ways to deal with 2 doctors, 2 trackers, the diarist and other shit that can find them.

If they take the trackers and diarist for themselves, they cannot be found AND they have the tools to find the doctors easily.

Unless scum are completely ignorant, ^ this is the strategy they likely went with.

Are there roles that jump out at you that scum wouldn't take ever? (neither for cheap costs nor for usefulness?)

I'm not understanding your strong townread of Seth. Can you explain more clearly what you're seeing?

point 1: Thats just not how any of this works. You have to think of the scum picks as a package deal. It has to fit in their point total. If a scum flips with a tracker, the other picks are likely to fit with the "take all PR's strategy" (Massclaim might actually be a real thing there to narrow it all down).

More will become clear over time. No roleblocks? No towns being made bulletproof? That either means they spent all their points (so not on 0-1 cost shit) or theyre spending it on rolecops or daychat (lol, bad strategy, but possible and some players might really make it work). With the white flag also being an option, we just wont really know what strategy they picked untill a flip happens.

They mustve considered how to counter the town PR pool though. So there probably is a global strategy in place of some sort.

point 2: Its just a level of genuineness. During the restarted game I did an in-depth read of his different playstyles as scum and town, and theres just differences. I cant really put it into words properly, but its a level of confidence in his own "being right" that is often visible in towns. Also, he just appears to be really trying to scumhunt. The logic all rings like stuff I felt, stuff I didnt think scum would say in those scenario's.

[Vecna]

Darg's morning tinfoil hat.

webDipMaf has had a trend lately that scum hide among the low-posters. Jamie, for instance, has indicated his intention to vote primarily among the low-posters.

Looking at the bot's summary of yesterday, two players who might not normally be among D1's top-talkers had extensive conversations with each other. (Bo and ghug) But their actual content was fluffy. First, they had a haiku battle of ginger stuff. Which was entertaining, and it WAS a quasi joke (joiku?) phase...

But then this N they have been discussing kgray's odd comments. And yet they, while presenting argumentative arguments arguing about kgray's thoughts, motivations, and purpose in life. But actually, their argements do not really... ummm... go anywhere.

They are both often fear-killed. Low-posters are liable to early daykill. Would it be beyond these two to formulate this sort of fakery?

There IS a marked difference in their postings. One is more erudite. One is more often simply reactive. But what-if what-if what-if these two are putting on a show?

Add to that... Jaimie has not noted anything about low posters.

Something to put away for later rememberating...

Hmmm, interesting. Would Darg as scum dream all this up?

@Vecna: First of all, if you actually read the whole thread, you will see that I responded to this, and that I was able to provide evidence of me calling out non-voters on D1 and demanding participation from them, and attacking Chaqa for his lack of participation. So, Darg's initial "observation" was incorrect and I have demonstrated this already.

Second of all, I am currently calling for the execution of the lowest poster in the game. That person's name is Hellenic Riot.

I never said I agreed with any of it jamiet. I was just openly wondering if a scum darg ever comes up with that reasoning for attacking you over. It was just a standout post from an otherwise pretty bland hard to read darg for me.

[Chaqa]

Why are people +1ing?

[teacon7]

Hey folks I'm catching up on the last couple pages now. I'll attempt to summarize, to avoid flaviating.

[BunnyGo]

OK my read of dargo ISO summary:

first many posts were trying to game the system (hammer, vote for someone to find the double voter etc. etc.). All this is amusing because none of it worked or even stands up to a read of the rules? Is this incompetent town!dargo or scum!dargo distracting everyone for sh*ts and giggles?

Then votes HR to "come out and play". Would he blatantly do this with a scum buddy? I don't know.

He then says "Because I already stated that trying to break the game was a bad tactic." But that's exactly what he's been trying to do...I don't like this.

Then Flum says "better recruit me, because otherwise I'm coming for you." Hey @Flum, can you vote dargo (1-5 times...more times is stronger opinion, fewer is less sure) if you still want to come for him?

His suggestions of what to grab as scum make no sense. I think he's just screwing with bozo's survey.

Hmm...then he has this: "Since scum already know each and ever role in play, all they lack is knowledge of who ended up with what. This makes any push to label people to role highly suspect, yes?" is it a town slip? A fake town slip? Have we already discussed this?

But then: "RIP flum.
I was wrong. Very wrong."

For someone who supposedly spent a lot of time thinking about the mechanics, he doesn't realize killing the spirit day 1 is a pretty good thing (losing Flum less good, but it's almost the best that could have happened as roles I think). Wait...have we determined yet if the Universal Backup is a second Spirit? ##CALL GM.

Then he tunnels on Teacon's Princess Bride crumb reading. It's a better reason to vote Teacon than others have, but it seems narrow to me. Whatever, darg can do darg here...

Darg complaining about how Flum is using the role is both possibly correct, but some butthurt I'd expect from scum.

Says he'll stay on Teacon for fishing for bananas. I don't understand why such a mechanic focused darg at the start would harp on Teacon for focusing on mechanics.

Then he votes Jamie because Macca says it's an info kill? Hint: if I ever suggested an info kill in the past, it is because I was scum.

In summary: ##vote darg

I won't be on at EOD (halloween at home with kiddos). But I'll try and check sporadically in next few hours.

[BunnyGo]

Why are people +1ing?

Apparently we're allowed this game...I asked the GMs about it when I joined and was literally laughed at and told to read the rules.

[BunnyGo]

fuck I just realized something

##call gm: can the universal backup inherit the power from the restless spirit?

Thatd be really really bad if scum managed to get their hands on that

(sorry if this was discussed already)

Apologies, I have been busy doing homework.
Going through on bot on call gms.
I don't believe I can answer this question.
Regarding a call gm by Teacon page 88, I believe it is both ub and what role they may have adopted. Though Worcej can clarify this better than I.
I think that is all of them.
Gm Note
Fluminator may vote for who he wants. He is however limited to the vote format which I won't do since the bot may trigger but y'all know it.
Gm note
I may not be around for this eod, but Worcej should be.

##call GM but to clarify, Flum is allowed to vote in thread. It's not like the double voter who has a second PM to the GM vote?

[BunnyGo]

Hey folks I'm catching up on the last couple pages now. I'll attempt to summarize, to avoid flaviating.

I dunno man...I LOVE when flavius flaviates at me. It's great.

[BunnyGo]

OK...off for a bit. Will try to answer any direct questions/comments/concerns/quibbles/etc.

[Jamiet99uk]

fuck I just realized something

##call gm: can the universal backup inherit the power from the restless spirit?

Thatd be really really bad if scum managed to get their hands on that

(sorry if this was discussed already)

Apologies, I have been busy doing homework.
Going through on bot on call gms.
I don't believe I can answer this question.
Regarding a call gm by Teacon page 88, I believe it is both ub and what role they may have adopted. Though Worcej can clarify this better than I.
I think that is all of them.
Gm Note
Fluminator may vote for who he wants. He is however limited to the vote format which I won't do since the bot may trigger but y'all know it.
Gm note
I may not be around for this eod, but Worcej should be.

##call GM but to clarify, Flum is allowed to vote in thread. It's not like the double voter who has a second PM to the GM vote?

Bunny have you literally not noticed all the votes Flum has cast?

[Vecna]

I agree that HR is not being helpful, but not sure if he is scum.

I nailed him last game he was scum (and nobody believed me) because he was looking like town but not really scum hunting or pushing his reads, more sitting back making good questions and subtly pushing misskills. I don't see why scum HR would play the way he is playing this game.

Yeah, the problem is.....HR mightve just seen how Durga did it last game and hope he also gets a pass for the first 2 days.

I dno. Theres just nothing to work with. Lurking is such a lame-ass thing to do when used as a strategy.

It's not just about lurking. Please actually read my actual posts about HR.

Ive been spending entirely too much time on catching up. Needlessly to say, were probably entirely on the same page, and I share most of your concerns.

I personally find the way how he interacted with Bozo a lot more suspicious than him not being here, or leaving an unexplained vote on Kgray (I can totally see why people would be suspicious of that slot here).

Given history, I could totally see how after last game (and other history) any scumteam of either Bo, Chaqa, HR or Kgray would be happy to recruit any of those 4 not on the original team (well.....probably not chaqa)

Id say my lynchpool for the day is actually those 4 people, and potentially Darg or Teacon.

Actually fuck it, this is fine ##vote HR

[kgray]

I agree with this. tbh I never expected Chaqa would actually keep a notebook, but his play here is more than just lazy. All he's done is talk about mechanics and stated that he didn't care about the first 24 hours but still hasn't really contributed since. And where he has given reads looks really bad. He was being so hedgy with his Jamie scumread and if Jamie is town then it really looks like Chaqa was setting him up for the next miskill by saying either Jamie or Flum had to be scum, and using Flum's flip to lock in a scumread on Jamie.

##vote Chaqa

Prime example. No process. Just the feeling that Chaqa might be a possible vote, so the reasoning just suddenly is written down.

Chaqa's vote for Jamie didn't seem to be based on much (which is fine for D1, go off vibes/gut/whatever) and he went back and forth a bunch about whether this was town Jamie or not.

With 20 minutes left, when Flum and Jamie were tied, Chaqa starts calling out things that Flum did as scummy but doesn't move even those reasons (massclaim suggestion) are more concrete than the reasons he was on Jamie.

It's still tied when he says he feels like one of Jamie/Flum is likely to be scum, he just doesn't know which.

Then his next post says he thinks Flum is scum if Jamie isn't and Jamie is scum if Flum isn't.

Finally, he claims that the late votes for Flum were a save of Jamie and says that Flum's flip makes Jamie look so much worse.

No explanation for why Jamie looks worse, no reason to infer that one of Jamie or Flum had to be scum. Seems like he was trying to set Jamie up for the next kill.

And now, on D2, he didn't vote for Jamie at all despite this. He said he agrees with Jamie's scumread of me, and somehow that's enough to undo whatever previously convinced him Jamie was scum? And he didn't notice I seemed scummy until Jamie pointed it out? He's okay with following the reads of his top scumread?

And then he voted teacon because... reasons? Why didn't he vote me if he thinks I'm scum? I think it's because the teacon wagon was leading and it seemed easier than pushing a daykill on me.

[worcej]

GM Note:
I am incredibly distracted this weekend (Father in town visiting my daughter for first time) and have been away from game for the past 48 hours. Donny has done amazing for covering for the first time. I know there is a backlog of questions, so here they are:

So reading EoD, I'm interested to know why @ghug was so keen to pull the votes off of Flum post-claim there. There seems to be an excellent reason why Flum's death was actually great (as there is now a very strong chance we have a second Spirit thanks to the Backup), so Flum's claim probably should have *increased* the reasons to vote him.

I would think the backup does not inherit the spirit's ability, since it uses it's ability on death and the backup doesn't inherit abilities that are out of charges.

##CALL GM Does the backup inherit the spirit's power?

No, the UB does not inherit the spirit's power. The spirit is effectively a single use power on death, so the power was used and no charges were left.

##CALLGM

If the restless spirit dies first, does the Universal Backup become a restless spirit?

##CALLGM

What happens with the Universal Backup if the Restless Spirit is the first to die?

fuck I just realized something

##call gm: can the universal backup inherit the power from the restless spirit?

Thatd be really really bad if scum managed to get their hands on that

(sorry if this was discussed already)

I think these is covered by the first response - no they do not.

[Hamilton Brian]

@Vecna, Bo is currently a vanity. Your vote for them was based on this message: "On one hand, I'd expect town ghug to play better, less jumping at shadows and more focused on effective gameplay even if the answers aren't immediately apparent. On the other hand, I'd expect scum ghug to play better, controlling the narrative from a distance and allowing the town to manipulate one another with some subtle nudging in the direction he wants them to go. Here I see neither.

Ghug, are you town playing badly? I never thought I'd see the day."

Your assessment, "this is such a post designed by scum to try and appear solving, holy dogwhistle on a parrot"

I think I am seeing a lot of posts like this about other players, HR notably. Using what exact words are you basing the vote on?

Should the Bo-vote not gain any further traction, where's your backup vote going to go?

[Hamilton Brian]

Jesus, scratch that prior post. Simul-post.

[worcej]

Vote Count:
Hellenic Riot (4) Jamiet99uk, seth24c, Hamilton Brian, Vecna
kgray (2) Hellenic Riot, ghug
teacon7 (2) damo666, Chaqa
Jamiet99uk (2) Maniac, dargorygel
Chaqa (1) kgray
BunnyGo (1) teacon7
Maniac (1) bo_sox48
Unvote (1) rdrivera2005
dargorygel (1) BunnyGo

Currently HR is going to be the second weakest link. Macca needs to vote or else they will also get a stern warning...

There are 4 hours and 15 minutes left in D2.

[teacon7]

@bunny - Sorry to hear abt the ticket. Glad to hear it wasn't an accident, and that you seem largely uninjured.

As far as we know, we can communicate with Flum via votecodes. I don't think we've gotten replies on a variety of GM calls, and htat's one of them. I'm going to proceed as if it's alright - he is voting, and it's confusing enough that it's not really providing a ton of benefit to town anyway.

So you're saying you expect mafia to have taken the fruit vendor role? I don't understand why they'd fake claim it...actual fruit vendor would make a CC in a heartbeat.

overall, idk what to think anymore. I was saying that maf would have _actually_ taken the FV role, so if they got tracked visiting someone who died, they could claim it was for fruit purposes, not killing purposes. So rather than fakeclaiming the role, they'd have taken it to look innocuous and explain something if they got tracked. claiming FV doesn't get them out of being eliminated, but it does explain a major potential data point against them.

That said, rivera was right - I had left the tree stump out of my calculations. I'm guessing scum picked at least one low cost role, because they'd want to recruit, deny town some investigative roles, and leave room for RB's.

[teacon7]

@ghug - Do you even think bo is mafia-aligned this game? Or is that antipathy just part of RL and breaking into the game?
I get what you're saying about damo and jamie. Why do you scumread darg?