M59 - Duck Season? - Game Thread

[foodcoats]

I townread my compatriots on the flash wagon - with the exception of hthefourth, who I'm nullish on - so I suspect there has to be a minimum of one scum in addition to MF among the bottom wagons:

TrPrado
MoscowFleet
Macca573
worcej
Hellenic Riot
Durga
goldfinger0303

[foodcoats]

You heard it here first: Hellenic Riot claims to have IDd the whole scum team.

Isn't a possible logical conclusion of HR's argument that flash is town?

Absolutely. But I was summarizing his conclusion at the end. It seemed he was working up to it.

Why don't we ask?

HR, was your intended conclusion that the scum are exactly as purported, or that flash is more likely town?

[BunnyGo]

I townread my compatriots on the flash wagon - with the exception of hthefourth, who I'm nullish on - so I suspect there has to be a minimum of one scum in addition to MF among the bottom wagons:

TrPrado
MoscowFleet
Macca573
worcej
Hellenic Riot
Durga
goldfinger0303

Throw Seth in there too. And yavu. They don’t deserve credit for being on the MF wagon.

[kgray]

Wait, sorry. When you say Moscow is trying not to tunnel on that one read, are you referring to bozo? The read that you're claiming Moscow was very not-serious about? What kind of town tunnels on a not-serious read?

In order of questionmarks: Yes, it wasn't the read it was the vote, and this question is dumb based off other questions you've asked - go read my cross post.

Again - you're not reading what people say very well.

Hey kgray you want to help me give worcej some heat?

Sure. My initial thought is that the situation was frustrating, but I'm not sure if it's alignment indicative.

On the one hand, his dismissal of my points was fairly scummy because he didn't seem to be thinking about what I was saying (or even what Moscow was saying) and was just writing me off. So definitely I get the feeling he could have been protecting Moscow by trying to make my arguments fabricated.

But on the other hand, in my experience he's combative in general and I don't think he really pushed back on anyone else's scumreads of Moscow. Maybe he just doesn't like me lol

I don't have many thoughts about worcej outside of this interaction. He hasn't contributed too much game-related content. He shaded bozo a bit for his entrance, did a ton of shitposting, that time he kept asking Tom what Tom thinks is scummy seemed like he was trying to fake participation. The only strong stance he took was to defend my questioning of Moscow's bozo scumread. So... overall, not looking too good.

What am I missing?

[kgray]

Gross value. At the time, plenty of others had done more total. But he had a higher concentration.

Please name names.

Of those with more total?

Sure, who do you think is being helpful? Who is not being helpful? Who do you think is pretending to be helpful? Basically, can you be more specific than "HR had better quality than other people"? Because that really tells us nothing about your thought process.

[kgray]

The MF wagon is full of known bussers, so I would not be surprised if there is an early busser even if flash is town. Even kgray is possible, she seemed to be scum reading MF for a long time but did not vote for him until the last half hour.

This seems like a pointless statement. Can you name anybody who hasn't bussed as scum at some point?

[kgray]

Macca is withering under kgray's questions. I don't know if a newb or what, but to me kgray's request seems pretty straightforward and I don't understand the constant delay action on Macca's part.

Yeah, I'm feeling a lot less like they're freely offering up their opinions than I was last phase.

[kgray]

Could you explain me what scum motivation you see for this?

I love tie votes as scum. Why wouldn't scum!yavuzovic want to keep it tied?

But I guess I'm not sure why he'd change his vote at all if he knew it was tied and wanted to keep it that way. Probably he'd just pretend to miss EOD.

Okay. So maybe ##vote Moscow.

That it took half an hour and rdrivera's questioning to come to this conclusion concerns me as well, especially since you were pursuing this over voting for MF, who you seemed suspicious of all D1.

I saw something that I thought was incredibly suspect and jumped on it. I was excited, I thought I caught scum. I was looking for other people's opinions on the situation and trying to figure out why others didn't react how I did.

Yeah, I was suspicious of Moscow for all of D1, and his vote for Yavuzovic really rubbed me the wrong way. And I didn't have an opinion on flash, and I liked the people on the Moscow wagon.

[Durga]

The MF wagon is full of known bussers, so I would not be surprised if there is an early busser even if flash is town. Even kgray is possible, she seemed to be scum reading MF for a long time but did not vote for him until the last half hour.

This seems like a pointless statement. Can you name anybody who hasn't bussed as scum at some point?

Me

[kgray]

I'd also be alright with a Moscow wagon. He's faded away a lot for someone who said it's important for town to constantly communicate their evaluation of the game, he started a bozo wagon for an admittedly non-serious reason but still claims bozo is obvious scum, and I'm the only person who he says he townreads and I'm suspicious that he's buddying me after our early interaction.

This causes me some concern about kgray. She had multiple reasons to scum read MF and said she was OK killing him before MF became a significant wagon, but she kept her vote on foodcoats until about 1 hour left, then with foodcoats losing support she tried to get yavuzovic killed for about half an hour before finally moving to MF when he was down 2 votes to flash.

On MF townreading kgray--MF went out of his way to townread kgray--even in his last post 00:37 before being daykilled. This was before he was slated to be killed. But I can't tell if it's because kgray plays a convincing townie or if it's because MF, not knowing he was going to get daykilled, wanted to lend cred to a fellow scum. Any thoughts?

So obviously this is coming from my own POV but I absolutely get why Moscow townread me. I called him out very early for what I thought was a non-genuine comment. I thought (and still think) he could be potentially distancing himself from his partner, but at the very least I thought it was suspicious and I kept asking him about it. He townread me to pocket me in the hopes that I'd get off his back.

[flash2015]

I was voting for flash before MF had any votes, but BunnyGo, summit, and hthefourth voted for flash after MF had reached 4 votes. Then flash self voted, which now also looks like he could have been trying to save MF. Knowing flash's alignment would be helpful in understanding D1.

Is this serious? At the time of voting, you and food had three votes too.

I only had 2 votes, but foodcoats and Macca had 3. If you had voted for them, it would have looked even more like you were trying to avoid voting for MF. Why didn't you vote for them or MF over self voting with the vote so close? Why did you vote for MF with 5 minute left after self voting for 3 hours if self voting was not a ploy to save yourself?

I think I have gone through this? I didn't want to deal with this. If they wanted to get me for low posting on D1, so be it. I generally see D1 as mostly noise...and I was too busy anyway.

I hadn't read the thread at the time so I didn't want to jump on anyone else...and my vote move would have raised more questions which I was not in a position to answer (Q: why are you voting for X? Me: I don't know). I voted to save myself five minutes from the end because the opportunity presented itself...and I had read the last few pages where MF voters (I remember Vecna the most) indicated their confidence that MF was scum. It was good enough for me. Thankfully it turned out to be right.

[kgray]

The MF wagon is full of known bussers, so I would not be surprised if there is an early busser even if flash is town. Even kgray is possible, she seemed to be scum reading MF for a long time but did not vote for him until the last half hour.

This seems like a pointless statement. Can you name anybody who hasn't bussed as scum at some point?

Me

Really? You've never bussed a partner?

I still think the statement is pointless. I don't think that scum is necessarily more or less likely to bus based on previous history, and it depends more on the situation of the current game itself. I wouldn't be surprised either if there was scum bussing Moscow, but just calling out people on a scum wagon because they've bussed in the past is lazy, especially for bozo.

[BunnyGo]

The MF wagon is full of known bussers, so I would not be surprised if there is an early busser even if flash is town. Even kgray is possible, she seemed to be scum reading MF for a long time but did not vote for him until the last half hour.

This seems like a pointless statement. Can you name anybody who hasn't bussed as scum at some point?

Me

And you didn’t yesterday. Interesting.

[Durga]

This seems like a pointless statement. Can you name anybody who hasn't bussed as scum at some point?

Me

And you didn’t yesterday. Interesting.

Shit, I just scum slipped. Sorry team.

[kgray]

Okay, I thought you meant sheeping me onto yavuzovic. Do you think seth is my scum teammate who is following my votes around? Or that he's buddying me?

I don't know if teammate. It sure seems like he's trying to find a speedwagon. I doubt you were actively hoping he'd do this if you were teammates (you're cannier than that usually). But you at least seemed a good patsy for it. He only stopped sheeping when you went to MF. And Seth gave up saving his teammate.

Okay. I'm still not sure but I haven't reread anything. I'll keep the underlined point in mind.

I just read through seth's ISO and the underlined statement is not entirely accurate.

Seth's first vote was for bozo, long after I'd voted for food and after I'd stated my unwillingness to kill bozo D1. At the time, worcej and yav were also voting bozo. Seth had previously townread worcej and seemd suspicious of yav.

He voted for food in a reply to me, so I think that does seem like sheeping. But also, he said that food's interaction with bozo (that I was commenting on) was part of what made him scumread bozo, in addition to food's defense of bozo's entrance. And he had also stated that he was suspicious of those who defended bozo's entrance earlier. So it seems to me like this vote was fairly organic.

The vote for yavuzovic, as I've already said, I don't think is sheeping. Seth made the first comment on it, and I replied to it that I agreed it seemed scummy. It's certainly possible that he was looking for someone to bite and I did, but again as I've already said, I don't think this is the case. I think it seemed like a genuine I-caught-scum moment.

He didn't follow me onto Moscow immediately, and I'll agree that was the most suspicious part of his voting.

Is there something that makes you think he's scum besides his voting? I didn't notice anything particularly incriminating in his ISO. I do think seth and worcej could make sense on a scumteam with Moscow, but overall, I still townread this slot.

[BunnyGo]

I don't know if teammate. It sure seems like he's trying to find a speedwagon. I doubt you were actively hoping he'd do this if you were teammates (you're cannier than that usually). But you at least seemed a good patsy for it. He only stopped sheeping when you went to MF. And Seth gave up saving his teammate.

Okay. I'm still not sure but I haven't reread anything. I'll keep the underlined point in mind.

I just read through seth's ISO and the underlined statement is not entirely accurate.

Seth's first vote was for bozo, long after I'd voted for food and after I'd stated my unwillingness to kill bozo D1. At the time, worcej and yav were also voting bozo. Seth had previously townread worcej and seemd suspicious of yav.

He voted for food in a reply to me, so I think that does seem like sheeping. But also, he said that food's interaction with bozo (that I was commenting on) was part of what made him scumread bozo, in addition to food's defense of bozo's entrance. And he had also stated that he was suspicious of those who defended bozo's entrance earlier. So it seems to me like this vote was fairly organic.

The vote for yavuzovic, as I've already said, I don't think is sheeping. Seth made the first comment on it, and I replied to it that I agreed it seemed scummy. It's certainly possible that he was looking for someone to bite and I did, but again as I've already said, I don't think this is the case. I think it seemed like a genuine I-caught-scum moment.

He didn't follow me onto Moscow immediately, and I'll agree that was the most suspicious part of his voting.

Is there something that makes you think he's scum besides his voting? I didn't notice anything particularly incriminating in his ISO. I do think seth and worcej could make sense on a scumteam with Moscow, but overall, I still townread this slot.

Haven’t done a deep read. Will try to get to it later.

[yavuzovic]

Wow, good job town.

I uhhhhh... I ALSO thought MF was scum. I was just TESTING your RESOLVE.

Is what I was doing.

I don't trust foodcoast. Look at this message. Or is it towny that he has such a weird reason to clarify his vote? From now on he is under my radar.

Well, I reckon this shouldn't be too difficult now. Imo everyone on MF is town with the possible exception of seth. Don't see anyone else bussing there.

I too disagree with this post. Especially the people who moved near deadline. However, being a counter-wagon to MoscowFleet is extra towncred for flash. He is my top townread now. I also think that the majority of the Mafia team was on other wagons so rather than declaring MF wagon innocent, we can turn our radar on the people out of this wagon.

[bozotheclown]

Which known bussers in particular? Also, is that a thing?

I mean players who historically have demonstrated their willingness to bus. In particular, rdrivera, Vecna, damo, kgray, and summit_fever. Fluminator says he has never been scum on this site, but I suspect he would not hesitate to bus.

Every half decent player busses when it makes sense, but your lack of analysis on why people would buss this way and get the Strongman killed is making me scumread you.

Look at Bunny analysis on Kgray and Seth to see someone tryng to solve (and I believe Kgray is town). This generic "there is known bussers" seems a way to divert the focus from people who actively defended Moscow or ignored him that is where it's most likely we find scum.

I did not say all of the scum were bussing MF. However, I was making a point that I do not think we can assume this:

Pfff, dont you go pretending you did the heavy lifting on this one

Yeah, maybe. I certainly felt better about my read knowing who was already voting him!

But this is my first time killing scum as town and I pretty much made the push at the end that got him killed, so I'm excited and am going to take some credit for it

I told my gut feelings are getting better.

Getting scum D1 is great, but also having a towncore is even better. Vecna, kgray, summit, damo and Flum are all town. Yav and Flash are probably town too.

[yavuzovic]

rdrivera is scum

[bozotheclown]

The problem with the argument that flash is scum and was self-voting to try and save Moscow is that when flash voted, there were a whole *3 hours* to go, and the vote count was at 4 Flash, 4 Moscow, 3 Macca, 3 Food, 2 Damo.


What possible reason would a scumteam of Flash + Moscow have in that scenario for not piling onto one of the other perfectly viable options there, and instead resort to some sort of miserable self-sacrificing strategy that severely decreases the chances of a town being daykilled?

It's not like flash took an opportunity to jump onto any of the Food, Damo, or yavuzovic wagons that came close to taking the lead later on either. I really don't buy this argument in the slightest - The only way it makes any sense at all is if literally all of those wagons were scum.

MF was always tied for the lead or behind only flash, so if flash had voted for foodcoats, damo, or yavuzovic at any point, it would look like he was protecting MF. That is why it makes sense even if foodcoats, damo, and yavuzovic are all town.