wD Mafia Master Post

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RagingIke297
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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#21 Post by RagingIke297 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:25 pm

bo_sox48 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:22 pm
Ezio wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:00 pm
I think
"9.) All players must not +1 other players' posts."
is a little ambiguous. I think it should read "nobody involved in the game in any way may +1 a players' post". As is, it says nothing about spectators or GM's +1ing, which I think is potentially harmful.
Personally I don't really see an issue with living players +1ing posts, but once you're a spectator, it should not be allowed. I'll edit it though.
A formal decision needs to be made, I don't think it's a huge deal if players +1 other players, but it could be used to influence the game in unwanted ways...

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#22 Post by bo_sox48 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:28 pm

If we were to bring back the council, then a formal decision could be made. Otherwise, the exact rules for each game are up to the GMs.

The idea that a +1 could influence the game is exactly why I think they should be allowed by living players. They are non-anonymous and you can see a timestamp on them, so you can't hide behind them like you used to able to.
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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#23 Post by Foxcastle » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:30 pm

I think +1'ing needs to be a uniform community standard, because if some games allow it, then I suspect it will bleed over into all games regardless of what rules an individual GM decides to make. "Oh, I didn't know it was banned, we were allowed to +1 in the last two games"...

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#24 Post by WarLegend » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:12 am

Why is it not allowed in the first place?

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#25 Post by brainbomb » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:25 am

I dont think chippe's plus one was the issue... not at all actually.

It was everything after that...
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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#26 Post by worcej » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:39 am

brainbomb wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:25 am
I dont think chippe's plus one was the issue... not at all actually.

It was everything after that...
I think the +1 was an issue because knowing he should have seen the god thread is a problem. That, and the post he +1'ed was your comments regarding Jaime who turned out to be scum.

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#27 Post by WarLegend » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:51 am

The +1 was not the problem... the problem was that he gave out information about the game.

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#28 Post by Ezio » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:18 am

The no +1 rule is mostly carryover from when +1s were Anon and it was almost impossible to tell when precisely they were given. With the new forum that issue has gone away.
I was unaware timestamps were a thing for +1s else I would have been arguing they should be legal in all games. I thought it would be too difficult to tell if a player had +1d a post while they were still alive rather than once they had died and seen the god thread, which I'd why they were still banned.
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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#29 Post by jmo1121109 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:56 am

I have updated rule 9 to reflect the new features +1's have. With a timestamp and non-anonymous feature they are fair for players alive in the game to use. All other members may not +1 since they may have access to the GOD thread or have been given information about roles. Enforceable starting now. If you have a severe concern about this rule change unfairly impacting games then email the mods at webdipmod@gmail.com, otherwise thanks for bringing up the concern so we could address it.
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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#30 Post by brainbomb » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:48 am

jmo1121109 wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:56 am
I have updated rule 9 to reflect the new features +1's have. With a timestamp and non-anonymous feature they are fair for players alive in the game to use. All other members may not +1 since they may have access to the GOD thread or have been given information about roles. Enforceable starting now. If you have a severe concern about this rule change unfairly impacting games then email the mods at webdipmod@gmail.com, otherwise thanks for bringing up the concern so we could address it.
Jmo thank you. This is a very solid contribution to improving our powerlessness as GMs wrt to deadposts and dead player influence.

This is positive and necessary. And its really nice to see solutions.

Ideally we should be able to police ourselves. We should have the same integrity levels we do in diplomacy games as we do in mafia. Theres just some things no one should ever do, and lines have crossed into a territory which I feel could very easily send us backward rather than forward. Hopefully people signing up for games understand that these games are fun. And a privilege. Ruining them makes more rules, more work for admins, and destroys motivations for GMs.

Thanks to all who worked on this. Especially JMO
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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#31 Post by bo_sox48 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:30 am

brainbomb wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:48 am
Ideally we should be able to police ourselves. We should have the same integrity levels we do in diplomacy games as we do in mafia.
See, that's the thing. I bet I've banned a thousand users. Jmo has done the same. A lot of people cheat when they are new at something. A lot of people break rules when they are new at something. In the case of mafia, I don't think there are many cheaters, but people break rules because they don't know them. That is basically all that has happened in mafia for a very long time, since we had the constant debacles that forced us to create the council in the first place.

Mafia does a fine job at policing itself and the people here do a great job at policing one another. What we need is a concrete set of rules that govern all games that GMs agree to stick to, and within that set of rules we need enough leniency and flexibility for GMs to make their setups and games work as intended.

Is there anything in the general rules as they're written right now that needs to be changed?
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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#32 Post by brainbomb » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:45 am

Rules I dont think need a whole lot of rewrite.

Quicktopic is very antiquated and could/should be replaced with discord, quicktopics are unsecured from dead posting and many times players post on mafia chat as a joke. I know speaking from experience. If we did away with quicktopic being used and moved god threads and maf chat to discord, admins can talk to players much faster, and can more rapidly reply to PM.


But those dont need to be mandatory, just upgrades. Discord maf chat is fully secure from outside dead posting ability. As long as a GM knows what theyre doing.

Wrt to concrete rules changes, I think we can leave these up to GM discretions as you said.

My above edits trimmed a few items off the list that simply arent relevant. Its really hard to post screenshots on the forum, and that rule coincides with dont share role PM anyway. As far as encryption,what the hell was that? And who could possibly pull off encrypted messages in a mafia game anyway? That rule felt absurd to even include.

I added a ban on OGI, Angleshooting simply to protect subs from being railroaded. But I dont know how you could enforce any kind of rule against ogi anyway
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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#33 Post by brainbomb » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:50 am

brainbomb wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:57 am
AMENDED RULES TO WEBDIP MAFIA

INTRODUCTION

Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game (for the town majority) is to eliminate all the mafia members and or third party before they outnumber the rest of the town. Each player receives a role PM with a specific win condition. The game is typically active, so the thread will get big quickly. It is essential to read the thread and game instructions to play the game.


GENERAL RULES

0. The GM reserves the right to adjudicate individual scenarios that arise during the course of the game at his discretion.
1. All players must vote and post.
2. All players are forbidden from using non-sanctioned PMing, or copied mechanics.
3. DEADPOSTING
All spectators and players who have been eliminated are forbidden from posting on all comment threads related to the game notes. Dead players may not +1 or discuss the game with living players.
4. All players are forbidden from cheating, angleshooting or using OGI
5. All players are required to play to win.
6. Players and/or teams may not concede the game in public.
7. All players must not +1 other players' posts. Dead players may not post in the game, nor +1 posts in the game.

ELABORATION

0. Given a lack of omniscience, the GM cannot create a rule to resolve all possible scenarios pre-emptively. To compensate for this, the GM is permitted to resolve a given scenario however they see fit, within the remit of the rules listed above, in the interest of all participants. The GM will resolve all scenarios as closely as possible to the intention of the rules, and will present an explanation regarding the adjudication to the greatest possible detail (which does not compromise anything in-game) and as closely in accordance with the written rules as possible.

1. You MUST cast a vote at least once during each day phase. You may vote and then 'unvote' (see below) if you change your mind as the Day progresses, however you may not end the phase with an 'unvote' in place. Anyone violating this rule will be modkilled unless there are very extenuating circumstances. Ending the day with a vote on “No Lynch” is permitted. During each day phase, every player MUST make at least two game-related posts. The GMs will use reasonable discretion when applying this rule.

2. All in-game communications should be kept within the thread. Only GM endorsed QuickTopic threads can be used for communicating with one another outside of the main game thread; aside from this, there should be no other forms of private messaging between players. You may PM the GM with questions or instructions.

3. DEADPOSTING
Players who have been removed from the game are no longer playing the game, and will not be permitted to comment on it in private messages or comment threads. A special QuickTopic "God Thread" will be opened for individuals who wish to spectate on the game, or players who have been eliminated. Use this channel to discuss the game while it is still ongoing.

4. This is a catch-all rule intended to preserve the spirit of the game. If you are considering saying or doing something that may be against the spirit of the game, message the GM about it before saying/doing it and the GM will let you know whether it is allowed or not.

To clarify further: Players may not copy and paste any game related Mechanics. Players may not share personal correspondence between GM to player under any circumstances.

5. This rule simply means that your actions should in some conceivable way advance your win condition as stated in your role PM. This rule is somewhat subjective, because the difference between a mistake and sabotage is sometimes hard to determine; the GM will exercise caution and restraint in observing this rule. This also means that if you need to leave the game for any reason, you should not simply drop out, but should message me or the Co-GM first so we can determine the best course of action.

6. If someone wishes to concede defeat, they must PM the GM, or post in their relevant QT thread for the GM to check it over. Public concessions are not permitted.

9. You are not permitted to click the "+1" on any other player's in-game posts. Giving +1s to the GM, by contrast, is actively encouraged. GMs may opt to ALLOW +1 of posts by living players only. This rule is up to the GM discretion.


You may contact the GM in-game by writing ##CALL GM and then stating your question. The GM or Co-GM will answer if appropriate. This can also be done for vote checks, rule clarifications, or uncertainty and will be answered if appropriately phrased.

We will be using time.is for EOD and EON adjudication.

PENALTIES

The penalty for breaking one of the above rules is decided at the GM’s discretion, up to and including immediate removal from the game and/or sanctions from future games. Removal and/or sanction are instruments of last resort and will be used only if absolutely necessary. Sanctions such as future bans will be determined by the consensus of the active player base after the game has concluded. A player removed from the game may or may not have their role revealed on removal, depending on the circumstances surrounding their removal.

ROLE ACTIONS
If you are a Town Power Role or otherwise have any actions to take, please PM your action to the GM. Night actions will be processed at the end of the night and can be changed up to that point. The Mafia team may submit their individual night actions in the Mafia QT. The Mafia-Aligned role and Serial Killer may individually submit their actions to the GM via a PM.


MISCELLANEOUS NOTES

PLAYER SILENCES:
Players that have other participants on their mute list are asked to remove them for the duration of this game. Disputes stemming from outside of this game should not carry over into the gameplay. If they do, the GM reserves the right to address these issues and potentially remove or sanction players if it becomes a disruption.

FORUM SILENCES:
If a player is silenced on the forum by the site moderators/admins, an alternate will take their place for the duration of their silence. The silenced player will then have the option to take their position back over or leave it in the hands of the alternate. As long as the silence does not stem from actions involving the mafia thread, there will be no in-game sanctions for a forum silence.

REPLACEMENTS
A player wishing to drop out may be replaced at the GM's discretion. Players looking to sub out must inform GM privately.

Individuals wishing to serve as potential replacements must NOT join the out-of-game God QT. Replacement is not guaranteed.

TURN DURATION
This game’s Day phases will last 48 hours and Night phases will last 24 hours, unless cut short by in-game mechanics (e.g., hammer). Extensions may be granted at the GM’s discretion, but don’t count on it. Phase shifts will be at 5PM EST or 9PM GMT.


VOTING

There are three types of voting within this game: collective voting to execute perceived Mafia in Day phases, collective voting to end a Day or Night phase, and Mafia voting to kill town members in Night phases.

“Lynch” vote: The first level of voting is for whom you intend to kill. Notate this vote with a pair of hash symbols before your intended vote target. (e.g., ##VOTE ND) You do need to write out the player’s name in a legible way. If the GM cannot understand it then it can’t be counted. Two hash symbols followed by the word vote and the player name is a must for counting the vote. In the event of a tie during a lynch vote, no one shall be killed.

PLEASE NOTE: If you do not use double hashtags your vote will not be counted, for reasons of fairness but also because it is unlikely the GM will see your vote using the CTRL+F feature and this rule thus prevents vote miscounts.

Must Vote: At the end of the Day phase, all participating players must have their vote on a candidate although a vote to “No Lynch” is permitted. You may ##VOTE and then ##UNVOTE if you change your mind as the Day progresses, however you may not end the phase with an ##UNVOTE in place. Anyone violating this rule will be modkilled unless there are very extenuating circumstances. Ending the day with a vote on “No Lynch” is permitted.

Hammer Vote: The second level of voting is whether or not to employ the hammer mechanic. By default, days are set to 48 hours long, and nights to 24 hours long; however, players may instead elect to activate the hammer mechanic. Notate this vote with a pair of hashes before the word end. (EX: ##END). The day will end as soon as a majority of players are voting to endhammer the same player. If you are not able to vote before the hammer is dropped, you will not be penalized for failing to vote during that day. Night phases may not normally be hammered - any exception to this will be announced by the GM.

Mafia Vote: The third level of voting refers to Mafia members choosing their NK (nightkill) target during Night phases. The mafia members will use their separate QuickTopic thread to discuss this. Please make your votes in bold, like so: kill Zultar (< b > kill Zultar < / b >). Mafia NK will be decided by whatever role has the power to night kill. This may be voted on, but ultimately the mafia role with the killing power will conduct the kill and make the decision. Please see the mafia role descriptions for further information about how the mafia night kill power will be determined.

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#34 Post by flash2015 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:39 am

Ezio wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:18 am
The no +1 rule is mostly carryover from when +1s were Anon and it was almost impossible to tell when precisely they were given. With the new forum that issue has gone away.
I was unaware timestamps were a thing for +1s else I would have been arguing they should be legal in all games. I thought it would be too difficult to tell if a player had +1d a post while they were still alive rather than once they had died and seen the god thread, which I'd why they were still banned.
+1s are still not secure even with timestamps as you could +1, leave it there for five minutes and remove it. And if there are lots of +1s on every post, would there be anyone really going back and checking that no-one from outside a game +1'd a post? Was anyone in the current game other than me checking the +1's consistently?

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#35 Post by yavuzovic » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:49 am

GENERAL RULE 2: What does "copied mechanics" mean? Why can't we share anything about mechanics? It's the second part of 4th article under ELABORATION title.

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#36 Post by flash2015 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:11 am

Of course issues with +1s can be solved with software...but someone needs to write it.

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#37 Post by flash2015 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:13 am

brainbomb wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:45 am
Rules I dont think need a whole lot of rewrite.

Quicktopic is very antiquated and could/should be replaced with discord, quicktopics are unsecured from dead posting and many times players post on mafia chat as a joke. I know speaking from experience. If we did away with quicktopic being used and moved god threads and maf chat to discord, admins can talk to players much faster, and can more rapidly reply to PM.


But those dont need to be mandatory, just upgrades. Discord maf chat is fully secure from outside dead posting ability. As long as a GM knows what theyre doing.

Wrt to concrete rules changes, I think we can leave these up to GM discretions as you said.

My above edits trimmed a few items off the list that simply arent relevant. Its really hard to post screenshots on the forum, and that rule coincides with dont share role PM anyway. As far as encryption,what the hell was that? And who could possibly pull off encrypted messages in a mafia game anyway? That rule felt absurd to even include.

I added a ban on OGI, Angleshooting simply to protect subs from being railroaded. But I dont know how you could enforce any kind of rule against ogi anyway
The problem with discord is that once everyone starts knowing everyone else's discord handle it makes cheating easier (i.e. you won't be able to manage communication outside the game threads themselves).
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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#38 Post by bo_sox48 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:37 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:39 am
Ezio wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:18 am
The no +1 rule is mostly carryover from when +1s were Anon and it was almost impossible to tell when precisely they were given. With the new forum that issue has gone away.
I was unaware timestamps were a thing for +1s else I would have been arguing they should be legal in all games. I thought it would be too difficult to tell if a player had +1d a post while they were still alive rather than once they had died and seen the god thread, which I'd why they were still banned.
+1s are still not secure even with timestamps as you could +1, leave it there for five minutes and remove it.
This is a good point.

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#39 Post by bo_sox48 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:40 pm

I am adding another rule that should be standard for all GMs moving forward:
12.) Any issues, concerns, or complaints should be directed toward the GMs only. For concerns that require escalation beyond the GMs, contact the moderators.
A few people have emailed zultar, kestas, or in one instance even me personally regarding mafia. There will never be a need to take that approach. Going forward, violation of this rule will result in mafia bans or forum bans.

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Re: wD Mafia Master Post

#40 Post by ND » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:49 pm

That's a good one @Bo

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