M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

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FlaviusAetius
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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#181 Post by FlaviusAetius » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:05 am

Squigs44 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:57 am
Ezio wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:31 am
Hello everyone. It's been a few games since I've played.

@Xorxes, @Squigs

What's the quality of Flavious' play been in the recent games he's been in?
I have only played one game with him (he was mafia). He was one of the most prolific posters I have played with, but I generally didn't find myself enlightened by any of his posts ever. He seemed to fixate on incorrect ideas he had and tunneled quite a lot. Not sure how he plays as town, but I would assume even as town he wouldn't be a super valuable poster. I could be biased from a rather large clash in playstyle I have with Flav though.
... How about instead of dismissing me, you analyze everyone's ideas, I'm not saying I have all the ideas, that's just not going to happen. But far too often do people in this game act like their the best thing since sliced bread and they have all the answers there ever were. Thats just not true, we are all just trying our best to find the mafia, if we all look at that together we can find something

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#182 Post by Squigs44 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:12 am

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:04 am
I've been the best there ever was ;)

As for @xorxes, so you basically proved my point, mass claiming day one doesn't allow us to confirm anything on day 1(or now I guess day 2)

@Squigs the point was that when you massclaim, theres a lot of roles revealed and a lot of information flying all at once. I think we can both agree, that at a certain point when there's too much information, its easy for people to slip under the cracks. And those cracks matter because that's where mafia find themselves in. As for everyone else we are all put on the backpedal, forcing to defend ourselves when we could instead be solving the game.
YES I agree if there's an Omniscient that we can PROVE is Omniscient then 100% we should mass claim right now, but mafia are already talking to each other they already knows the roles they can fake claim, their going to be prepared for this, and we will be walking essentially blind, its a strategy error.
And I do know how to play mafia that was the strawman, me not 'understanding basic concepts of mafia' because I didnt agree with you that we should massclaim? What a joke
The bolded part was not what I argued. I argued that you did not understand two basic concepts of mafia:
  • Town is not at a disadvantage for receiving a large amount of information
  • A 1v1 situation is better than a "find 4 mafia and 3 3rd party in 20 people" situation
You haven't argued that second point, so unless you want to argue further there, I will assume you have conceded on that point.
The first point, I stand by what I have said twice now. Receiving a large amount of information is more beneficial to town than not receiving any information. You claim that we can become overloaded with information, that people can slip through the cracks, and that townies will be forced to defend themselves rather than solve. This is false, and here is why:
I do not let information slip through the cracks. I read, and then reread, and then iso, and then iso again. I will read any given post made on day 1 up to 5 or 6 times. I know several other quality players that do the same. If you fail to re-read and rediscover information, then you are not playing to the best of your ability. These claims will not get swept into any cracks. People remember claims, make charts about them in MS paint, and develop strategies around them.
Second, cleared townies will not be forced to defend rather than solve. The point of claiming for townclears is to get a core group of people that are mechanically clear - meaning they have 0 reason to spend effort defending themselves. Even those that are not 100% mechanically cleared would be stupid to spend all their time defending themselves when they too should be solving.

Your counterpoints as to why a surplus of information is a bad thing rely on town ignoring information and playing defensively, both things that town should never do. Or are you going to argue that those things are pro-town now?

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#183 Post by Squigs44 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:17 am

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:05 am
Squigs44 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:57 am
Ezio wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:31 am
Hello everyone. It's been a few games since I've played.

@Xorxes, @Squigs

What's the quality of Flavious' play been in the recent games he's been in?
I have only played one game with him (he was mafia). He was one of the most prolific posters I have played with, but I generally didn't find myself enlightened by any of his posts ever. He seemed to fixate on incorrect ideas he had and tunneled quite a lot. Not sure how he plays as town, but I would assume even as town he wouldn't be a super valuable poster. I could be biased from a rather large clash in playstyle I have with Flav though.
... How about instead of dismissing me, you analyze everyone's ideas, I'm not saying I have all the ideas, that's just not going to happen. But far too often do people in this game act like their the best thing since sliced bread and they have all the answers there ever were. Thats just not true, we are all just trying our best to find the mafia, if we all look at that together we can find something
Flav thinking I am focusing all of my effort on him :lol:
Someone is getting defensive

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#184 Post by Squigs44 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:18 am

Xorxes - convince me you are town and not a sneaky 3rd party arsonist or infector

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#185 Post by Squigs44 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:22 am

TrPrado wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:22 am
Squigs44 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:07 am
TrPrado wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:04 am


I wouldn't say so. We're down two town and only have one scum with two hours worth of usable interactions. We'll be down another town going into D3 unless we get lucky.
No I think Bunny is right here. Trading two town for one mafia is good.
Also, I think there was some decent info in the first two hours. Xorxes' mass claim idea certainly made some people uncomfortable
Only about half the people in the game interacted with the idea in those two hours, and 8 players didn't post at all in those 2 hours. Maybe it can point to MAYBE one person, but it's not nearly enough to call this situation a win.
Day 1 certainly could have gone better, but all in all, if we can kill 1 scum for every 2 town, I take that deal.

Who is the person that it "MAYBE" points to in your opinion?

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#186 Post by Squigs44 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:25 am

rdrivera2005 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:46 am
Vaporwave wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:23 am
Squigs44 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:19 am

So the only role you knew was your own?
QT is now open, I'm aware what my mates can do and what they can fakeclaim

you should know this by now, Squigs ;) don't act so naive
If there is a Vig out here he should probably claim and shoot Vapor. We don't miss a day and have a clear if we don't massclaim.
In addition to having a near clear (mafia could have a vig actually, so vig cant completely clear themselves) this would make the discussion and voting on day 2 much more meaningful.

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#187 Post by BobMcBob » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:33 am

Okay, I'm back and have access to the role list now. Universal Backup is a pain to lose, especially when we shouldn't have, but it's better than it could have been. There are worse thing to lose, as far as I can tell. Does anyone have any tips on how to solve the game? I'm a little overwhelmed by all the special roles and having never done it before.

Massclaim seems like a good (albeit not particularly interesting) option. Although I presume (and hope, otherwise it's going to be a pretty dull game) Chaqa accounted for that possibility and made some attempts to balance it. I can't see too many problems with it though. Narrowing the pool sounds like a good idea.

Is massclaim a normal thing to do, or is it just that this scenario lends itself to a massclaim?

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#188 Post by BobMcBob » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:02 am

xorxes wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:20 am
xorxes wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:16 am
Anyone with a role that mafia could steal and janitor and who thinks like me that they might be nightkilled should probably claim their role before EON to prevent mafia from stealing and claiming that role.
That's another reason why massclaim is a good idea, but now it's probably best to do it as close to EON as possible so that scum can't base their kill choice on the claims.

Anyone who does NOT claim tonight at EON will have some explaining to do tomorrow.
What I'm not sure of is, why do the massclaim at EoN? For people to claim at EoN, they need to be on (duh), and for it to work most would need to be on around about then (as far as I can tell), and probably mafia would be too. So mafia would still probably be able to base their kill on claims.

What are the upsides of doing it at EoN over D2? There's probably something important I've missed, but would somebody mind explaining?

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#189 Post by Squigs44 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:08 am

BobMcBob wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:33 am
Okay, I'm back and have access to the role list now. Universal Backup is a pain to lose, especially when we shouldn't have, but it's better than it could have been. There are worse thing to lose, as far as I can tell. Does anyone have any tips on how to solve the game? I'm a little overwhelmed by all the special roles and having never done it before.

Massclaim seems like a good (albeit not particularly interesting) option. Although I presume (and hope, otherwise it's going to be a pretty dull game) Chaqa accounted for that possibility and made some attempts to balance it. I can't see too many problems with it though. Narrowing the pool sounds like a good idea.

Is massclaim a normal thing to do, or is it just that this scenario lends itself to a massclaim?
It depends on the setup. The one political party setup lent itself towards a massclaim pretty well. A setup like tiny hunt punishes mass claims severely. I would say a majority of games see some sort of mass claim during the late game. I wrote up a post on the various roles and how a mass claim is not broken in this set up, and really depends on what roles are included in the game. I think it generally has more potential for good rather than harm though.
When you should claim your role depends on the role itself, and your availability to be online at EoN. For example, vig would want to claim ASAP and blast Vapor. Someone like a cop would want to claim just before EoN if they could along with their target. Someone who is omniscient might want to claim last if they can, since they could really confirm / deny several claims. Typically in a mass claim mafia try to wait till the last possible moment to claim to give themselves more options, but with a fake role, I'm not sure that holds up here.

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#190 Post by Squigs44 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:10 am

BobMcBob wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:02 am
xorxes wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:20 am
xorxes wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:16 am
Anyone with a role that mafia could steal and janitor and who thinks like me that they might be nightkilled should probably claim their role before EON to prevent mafia from stealing and claiming that role.
That's another reason why massclaim is a good idea, but now it's probably best to do it as close to EON as possible so that scum can't base their kill choice on the claims.

Anyone who does NOT claim tonight at EON will have some explaining to do tomorrow.
What I'm not sure of is, why do the massclaim at EoN? For people to claim at EoN, they need to be on (duh), and for it to work most would need to be on around about then (as far as I can tell), and probably mafia would be too. So mafia would still probably be able to base their kill on claims.

What are the upsides of doing it at EoN over D2? There's probably something important I've missed, but would somebody mind explaining?
You can't claim D2 if mafia murks you in the night.
The janitor role is nullified if the target claims just before EoN.

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#191 Post by bozotheclown » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:18 am

I think a mass claim is a benefit to town in this setup, especially since the third parties don't know what roles are safe to claim.

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#192 Post by bozotheclown » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:21 am

Vaporwave wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:40 am
See, I haven't clicked on that doc link, but it contains the description of my role made PUBLICLY

I wasn't aware of that, would have done this differently or rather not used it at all unless I was chosen for a lynch
Why did you want to hammer when the vote was tied, at least from your perspective?

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#193 Post by bozotheclown » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:25 am

rdrivera2005 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:13 am
xorxes wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:09 am
dargorygel wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:29 pm

How many townie rolls are not confirmable?
Does this mean we have to read the setup?
Out of 28 potential town roles, only about six seem to be not confirmable, and most of those are roles that scum would want to kill early anyway, so they will confirm them for us (investigative and protective) so it looks like a massclaim is well in order.
I don't like massclaims because it seems just an exploit of the setup. I understand it can be really effective in this setup after re-reading the role list, but I just think it will kill the game fun.
I disagree, I believe all sides should do what they think gives them the best chance to win. If mass claiming leads to an easy town win, we at least know the setup probably needs to be adjusted.

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#194 Post by rdrivera2005 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:42 am

Squigs44 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:18 am
Xorxes - convince me you are town and not a sneaky 3rd party arsonist or infector
That's exactly what I am thinking, Assassin is who benefits more from a massclaim, but Infector is also very benefited.

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#195 Post by rdrivera2005 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:46 am

bozotheclown wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:18 am
I think a mass claim is a benefit to town in this setup, especially since the third parties don't know what roles are safe to claim.
Third parties have safe roles to claim, at least this is what I understood from GMs answers.

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#196 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:20 am

So I come back after a good night's sleep in RL, and it's already N1 here in Mafia as well. Lol, kek, lel.

Once again Vaporwave uses his ability very stupidly early in the game. Oh well, that's an easy gain for town as he's outed himself and we can lynch him at our leisure.

@Vapor: Just for our interest, why did you decide to use your power so early?

@Chaqa: Squigs' vote on me should have counted. We haven't counted quoted votes since the new forum launched and that's been a couple of years. You've played in more than one Mafia game since then, so I'm really surprised at your lack of observation, but there we go. We all make mistakes.

@Xorxes: You seem very willing to sacrifice town's PRs. Your massclaim logic is "oh well, we can confirm the roles when Mafia kill them". I don't like that at all.

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#197 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:21 am

Squigs44 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:28 am
Vaporwave wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:23 am
Squigs44 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:19 am

So the only role you knew was your own?
QT is now open, I'm aware what my mates can do and what they can fakeclaim

you should know this by now, Squigs ;) don't act so naive
Wait did you claim mafia?
Dude, use your powers of observation. He said "Never gonna give you up", and moments later the phase ended. We know that the Rickroller is Mafia. QED.

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#198 Post by xorxes » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:23 am

Squigs44 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:18 am
Xorxes - convince me you are town and not a sneaky 3rd party arsonist or infector
Easy peasy, I will be claiming my role before EON. I have done that in the last two games with a Janitor, for obvious reasons.

How is it any good for third parties to be forced to claim a fake role?

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#199 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:26 am

Also, RIP, poor Kitsune. What a pointless way to die.

(BOOO, evil Vapor, we will hang you!)

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Re: M50: Madness in Memetown [HIDDEN]

#200 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:30 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:20 am

@Xorxes: You seem very willing to sacrifice town's PRs. Your massclaim logic is "oh well, we can confirm the roles when Mafia kill them". I don't like that at all.
And yes, Xorxes, before you reply, I do understand this is a potentially town gambit, whereby we sacrifice some of town's PRs in order to narrow down the mafia pool.

I just don't like it.

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