MAFIA 49 -Avengers "Re-release"- GAME THREAD [HIDDEN]

[rdrivera2005]

OK then, I'm going to ##VOTE Espresso

I'm really sad because we were scumbuddies in the minimafia game and did great together, and I still feel some camaraderie towards EP because of that, but I think he is scum this time. This reads list is very empty, too many reads to say very little. Too manys "time will tell". Reads I especially dislike: bozo, rivera, Fox.

Agree on my read, telling I am usually more active is just weird.

My thought process:
You were very active D1 in M47. At the time of my posting, you'd barely posted anything here in comparison. lurkery = kinda scummy.

On the other hand, your opening post re the reality stone was great + I don't see scum making that post so early. town ping.

In light of a conflicting scum and town ping, I listed you as null.


If you were an observer, how would you compare your gameplay here to past games?
[/quote]

I think looking from outside I am more or less the same as I don't change much my meta from town to scum and I was never a big poster. M47 was a bit different because I was a D1 Vig, so I need to be more upfront at start (and it didn't work well).
From inside I would say I am a lot more relaxed then the last as playing as scum requires you to be a lot more careful to sound good, specially when you are not a native English speaker.

[damo666]

Towncore

Brain
Bunny
Damo
ND
Rdr

Probtown

Jamie
Kits
Xorxes

Townlean

Bozo
EP
Food
Neph
Vapor
Worcej

Null
The Rest

[rdrivera2005]

##Vote bozo

This was useful yes and I intended to bring it up when relevant. This was also used to success last game although both times the game has progressed significantly than it currently has. There is little point in doing it now and it is the definition of content for the sake of content

I can always join a bozo lynch.

##vote Bozo

Why is that, shouldn't you only want to lynch me when I am scum?

I always THINK you are scum and you always think I am scum. Obviously, we are frequently wrong, specially on D1. I know you are wrong this time, am I wrong? I don't feel you engaged as in M47.

[foodcoats]

Here are my reads. I have 5 scumleans... @bozo, I would drop Chaqa before the others, so my four for your list are brainbomb, emc, Fox and Maniac.

bozotheclown
null
Overly into a bussing idea super early, no big deas like usual. Seems calm clear and articulate when defending self and the survey idea. No evil agenda, standard bozo fare.

brainbomb
scumlean
Pushy on Vaporwave. Read way too much into ND roleplaying Thanos. And yet... I don't feel like they've been swinging at as many people as usual. Sedatebrain could be scumbrain.

BunnyGo
null
Very resistant to being pushed. Combination of questioning attitude, some volatility, apparent levels of capability... could either be earnest angry town, or carefully calculated scum. I feel like it's town but don't fully trust that yet as there are little pings that set me wrong.

Chaqa
scumlean
Classically lurky. Incredibly bland. Reads seem more like a list of people Chaqa knows/likes than actually reads. I had a better feeling from Chaqa in the gladiator game on D1. "Loved" the idea of D&D reads but didn't follow through, though this... is hard to read into. Apparently had two kind of scum reads, one of the being Vapor, but didn't vote for them, voted ND instead for being annoying.

damo666
null
damo seems a lot more active than they usually are on day 1. Huh. damo is not usually this willing to give reads and make pushes. However the actual content is good and thoughtful.

dargo
townlean
I find it interesting that darg seems not to be doing much but caught on in a pretty interesting way to the shifting room dynamics around Vapor on page 27. That's a level of awareness and willingness to be incisive not too many players have shown.

e.m.c^42
scumlean
Lots of anchoring, reading Vaporwave which I think is a meme or something, but also seeming a little uncalm. Intuitive scum lean here.

EspressoPatronum
townlean
Good questioning, good analysis, very meta aware. A little reactive due to the timing of their entry but overall feels like pro-town at the very least.

foodcoats
Level 18 Paladin with hypogriff mount and +4 vorpal sword

Foxcastle
scumlean
A little less good than I expected. The approach feels vague. There is a lack of pressure and incision. Was hamming the lurkers but is close to a lurker themself. If they were serious about villifying lurkers why not get in here and attack Chaqa or Temasek further?

Jamiet99uk
townlean
Getting wild and angry, pushing hard on things. Suggests a town perspective. Going hooligan on worcej for what I think was a reaction test and looks TvT to me.

KalelChase
townlean
Weird random story posting, but that seems to be out of a desire to show their personality. Scum might be more afraid of that. Is willing to dive into their perspective and explain themselves.

Kitsune
townlean
Some people claim they are acting dumber than they are, though they seem sincere. They are taking a very strict and logical approach to things. I don't think a newbie scum could do this very effectively. It comes off very well.

Maniac
scumlean
Seems active passive. Railed on BunnyGo for something that I think a noob could easily mistake. Lots of acerbic jabs but I don't feel anything behind them, any commitment to finding scum or making it stick.

ND
null
Pretty stupid stuff.

Nephthys
townlean
Has contradicted themself on a few occasions about methodology, I can't imagine scum doing this. Is driving hard on a few things, in attack mode. I suspect Neph is sharp enough to take this approach as scum, too. Will have to watch how Neph's reads evolve because that may be the best way to catch scum!Neph but still more likely town from behaviour.

rdrivera2005
null
Has a casual and laid back vibe that I find difficult to assess. They are open to ideas and are coasting around. This could go either way.

Temasek22
townlean
I'm not sure if this is right but at least Temasek doesn't seem worried about being scumread for lurking and posting mostly irrelevancies, even if a few reads. There's almost an assuredness to this playstyle now. Seems a confidence that could come from town!Temasek.

Vaporwave
null
Made a weird statement about not getting paranoid because there are only four scum. Also claimed VT on D1 well before deadline. This does fit into how I think Vapor plays in general and could go either way... Vapor has claimed and got themselves killed in the past.

worcej
townlean
The "who would you NK" thing was weird but I don't know if even worcej could dare that far as scum. Felt like town worcej making a reaction test.

xorxes
townlean
Early on seemed scummy with a lot of leading on with questions, but gets good and analytical around page 25, offers good reasoning, is soundly thinking through things on multiple fronts and it doesn't look like it could be faked. Has heart as it were.

Yuuki
null
Non-poster.

[foodcoats]

I'm not going to be on again until the hour leading up until EOD.

I do not like either of the leading wagons based on my reads.

Hmmm...

A combination of trusting EP and thinking that it's unlikely Maniac or brainbomb wagons will develop means I will vote Foxcastle.

##VOTE Foxcastle

[dargorygel]

My Big List
Hero-leans
brain
chaqa
damo
darg
foodcoats
Jamie
Maniac
ND
Neph
Rdrivera
Yuuki
Worcej
Xorxes
Foxcastle

Villain-Leans (in order from most lean to least. Two ‘splainin’ words)
vapor… guilty, scared
bunny… guessing, trying
kitsune… slight, erratic
emc… hopping, nervous
Kitsune… faking, trying
bozo… waiting, cautious
espresso… I am sheeping here. I have no read on him, but can’t say, “null.”
Kalelchase… trying, new

[Kitsune]

I'm not going to be on again until the hour leading up until EOD.

I do not like either of the leading wagons based on my reads.

Hmmm...

A combination of trusting EP and thinking that it's unlikely Maniac or brainbomb wagons will develop means I will vote Foxcastle.

##VOTE Foxcastle

This is... frustrating. I get a good vibe on you now and I never really got a scum one based on the heuristics I was using before.

I feel awkward basing a vote on someone else's meta knowledge which I have no real way of confirming since I wasn't in the same games so I don't really feel I can jump on this wagon until I see more reasoning behind it.

But on the other hand no one else seems to share my concerns about Temasek - so maybe I'm wrong?

I'm going to take Espresso's advice and codify my read list a little more clearly when I'm back at my laptop, give it some thought and see what develops. Maybe a vote change if I see any good options.

[Kitsune]

@dargorygel - So how worried exactly should I be that you have me on your little list twice? ^_^

[foodcoats]

I'm not going to be on again until the hour leading up until EOD.

I do not like either of the leading wagons based on my reads.

Hmmm...

A combination of trusting EP and thinking that it's unlikely Maniac or brainbomb wagons will develop means I will vote Foxcastle.

##VOTE Foxcastle

This is... frustrating. I get a good vibe on you now and I never really got a scum one based on the heuristics I was using before.

I feel awkward basing a vote on someone else's meta knowledge which I have no real way of confirming since I wasn't in the same games so I don't really feel I can jump on this wagon until I see more reasoning behind it.

But on the other hand no one else seems to share my concerns about Temasek - so maybe I'm wrong?

I'm going to take Espresso's advice and codify my read list a little more clearly when I'm back at my laptop, give it some thought and see what develops. Maybe a vote change if I see any good options.

Well definitely don't vote for who I voted for just because you think i'm town. That is referred to as sheeping and people will slag you for it. In fact I'll probably get reamed for buddying or sheeping EP myself but I think based on my reads and the architecture of the game it's the best strategic place for my vote. If I could cast power word kill though I think it would be braimbomb.

[Maniac]

Xorxes Case:

Let’s start right at the very beginning…
RagingIke “Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions…”
Well for most of us it is, but for scum it’s about manipulation. Manipulating lynches to get Townies lynched and to save your teammates. So how do scum manipulate people? They have a variety of ways, but lets look at a hypothetical simple example.
Town “I think person X is scum”
Scum “why do you think that”
Town “Because of reasons, 1, 2, and 3”
Scum “Yeah but what about rest of what they have said”
Town – goes to read all of person X comes back “Yes person X is scum for reasons 4, 5, and 6”
Do you all see what happens? Town starts of with a fairly weak, ‘so-and-so is scum’. When challenged people naturally defend their position and find reasons to reinforce their first thought/opinion. When encourage to scum hunt further into the original suspect they find more reasons to back up their original thought. By the end of this the fairly weak scum read becomes a convincing case and scum have got another townie lynched. If one of the scum’s buddies was on the steps of the gallows at the time, they have been saved and an innocent townie is choking for breath.
Now let’s see this is action…
Maniac ‘I think BunnyGo is lying because he said he didn’t read the first page’
Xorxes ‘foodcoats says it’s easy to miss things Maniac, what do you say to that’
Maniac ‘BunnyGo lied, was lazy, isn’t trying to solve the puzzle and called me a shit player’
Xorxes “Is everything else he has done consistent with him being scum?”
Maniac “I will be re-reading BunnyGo..”
During this encounter Xorxes was voting for the lead wagon Expresso. Could Expresso be his scum buddy and he wants to bus him and protect him at the same time?
I definitely feel xorxes was trying to manipulate me, once I call him on that we have no further exchanges.

Let’s see what else xorxes says.
First post Pg3 “I do agree that Vapor sounds scummy though. Let's [][]VOTE Vapor to start with and see what happens” No real reason for the vote, but it’s early and he thinks Vapor ‘sounds scummy’.
Pg 3 “[Maniac’s] reason for voting Vapor is correct” so why didn’t xorxes give that reason for also voting Vapor?
Pg 13 to Vapor “What is your assessment of Maniac?” Another invitation to go and find dirt on a Handsome Townie.
Pg 28 to Maniac “I was actually scumreading you for your vote because I thought it was lazy” – this after he voted Vapor for ‘sounding scummy’.

I’ve selected a few quotes above, but apart from that xorxes doesn’t really say much despite being one of the top posters by post number. He gives favourable comments about people with obviously sucking up to them. ‘I don’t think Brainbomb is bussing’; ‘ND takes his roleplaying seriously’; ‘Lots of townie points to worcej’; ‘I don't believe emc really thinks he is a bad player.’; ‘Good plan.’ [to vaporwave]; ‘we killed foodcoats – he had good reads from the start’; ‘emc always votes in the last half hour of the day, whatever his alignment, which is extremely annoying’; ‘The odd thing would have been if brainbomb had stayed on Vapor for more than a couple of hours.’; ‘So I'm thinking Kalel is probably town despite some scummy’; ‘Good point from foodcoats.’; ‘bozo doesn't let one word of mine go unchallenged, whether I'm town or scum, it's extremely annoying.’; ‘Good. Townie points to you, not because I agree with all your reads, but because it shows solid townie effort went into them.’ [To Kitsune];

That’s nine people xorxes has complimented. Is this further evidence of manipulation?

Xorxes is voting for Espresso because he doesn’t like he reads. But apart from that he barely mentions or interacts with Espresso. Are they scum buddies and xorxes is subtly trying to save him by misdirecting me and bussing espresso but leaving his options open?

I’d suggest xorxes is a good lynch. If he is manipulating me and others, that is a clear indication he is scum, but also it gives us so much information. Does it clear BunnyGo? Does it implicate Espresso? Am I given townie points? I’d suggest the answer to all of those is yes, and therefore I’m going to ##vote xorxes.

I rest my case.

[dargorygel]

@dargorygel - So how worried exactly should I be that you have me on your little list twice? ^_^

lol
the lower scum is temasek.
stop wearing masks.

[bozotheclown]

scum survey:
bozo: Vapor, emc, rdrivera, Nephthys
BunnyGo: emc, Kalel, bozo, brainbomb
Nephthys: Espresso, Jamie, foodcoats, bozo
Vapor: darg, Espresso, foodcoats, ?
Espresso: Foxcastle, emc, Kalel, darg?
damo: Chaqa, darg, emc, Kalel
foodcoats: brainbomb, emc, Foxcastle, Maniac
darg: Vapor, BunnyG, Kitsune, emc

[bozotheclown]

I can always join a bozo lynch.

##vote Bozo

Why is that, shouldn't you only want to lynch me when I am scum?

I always THINK you are scum and you always think I am scum. Obviously, we are frequently wrong, specially on D1. I know you are wrong this time, am I wrong? I don't feel you engaged as in M47.

I do not always think you are scum, I believe you would have to go back a number of games since I last mistakenly scum read you when you were town.

[bozotheclown]

I can always join a bozo lynch.

##vote Bozo

Why is that, shouldn't you only want to lynch me when I am scum?

I always THINK you are scum and you always think I am scum. Obviously, we are frequently wrong, specially on D1. I know you are wrong this time, am I wrong? I don't feel you engaged as in M47.

Would you like to state three more scum reads for the survey?

[Kitsune]

Town:
Brain - Seems organised and driving an agenda, but also furthering discussion instead of shutting down other ideas.
Me - Well, obviously. But I mean, hmu with any of those questions you may have. I may not always be sure where I should be chiming in or not when over- or under- posting seems to upset people, but I'm generally polite enough to answer anything you decide to ask me directly. Try me! BD

Xorxes - Could be subjective, but I get a solid investigative town read from him. I'd put him in my towncore, if I was picking one. And I guess I am. So, there.

Townlean:
BunnyGo - I like his conviction, if not all the ripples from his playing style crossing most of the group's. Fairly comfortable with townlean but willing to listen to counterproposals.
Worcej - Not getting a scum vibe here with his prodding actions, but getting some weird vibes from his apparent attempts at a low profile. Possible SK vibe? If not then a solid townie.

Jamie - I don't get the scummy vibes EP was citing here. May be based on meta considerations I'm only hearing second hand. Leaning town, if a little more weakly than others.

Vapourwave - Got some weird and confusing vibes earlier, but I'm liking the way he's working on this now.

Kalel - I read him as a zealous newcomer to the webDip meta (and yes I realise the irony in me saying this). So... possible SK candidate but I don't read him as scum until he incriminates himself further.
Darg - I didn't enjoy his focus when it was on me, but I see what he's doing and I like that he's trying to progress the investigation short of clear details on how he's not.
Null:

Rdrivera, - Simply don't know yet.
ND - Simply don't know yet.
Vapour - Simply don't know yet.
Fox - I don't feel him as Scum. His lurker drive seems more like a townie with his own agenda, and he hasn't stuck to it monomaniacally which... actually improves my vibe on him.
EMC - Same. I've been him very thin on the ground in other commitments we're in togehter so I can believe he's busy however irritating that is for us.
Nephthys - Appears to be advancing the investigation, but also seemed to contradict himself once or twice. Will look forward to seeing what develops.
EspressoPatronum - I don't agree with all his conclusions, but still reading him as mistaken rather than malicious and reassured by recent comments by and about him I'm prepared to put him here.
Scumlean:

Scum:
Bozo - On reconsidering... I think I'm actually putting Bozo here now. Combination of the two heuristics, he seems to go from keeping a low profile for long periods of time to pushing his four-row agenda and trying to enlist an increasing number of the players into subscribing to his meta for the game. Maybe he's right? I'm not sure I trust him at this point. Maybe he'll up his clarity later as players who know him better are suggesting.

Temasek - Most people excusing this are saying it's just his meta, and they could well be right. I don't know it, so not judging on that and purely looking at this game I see him posting largely to no purpose and jumping onto existing wagons to try to keep his head down.

-----------------------

I'm missing four people I think. But it's late. I'll work out who I'm missing in the morning.

For now, swapping my vote to

##bozotheclown

[Maniac]

scum survey:
bozo: Vapor, emc, rdrivera, Nephthys
BunnyGo: emc, Kalel, bozo, brainbomb
Nephthys: Espresso, Jamie, foodcoats, bozo
Vapor: darg, Espresso, foodcoats, ?
Espresso: Foxcastle, emc, Kalel, darg?
damo: Chaqa, darg, emc, Kalel
foodcoats: brainbomb, emc, Foxcastle, Maniac
darg: Vapor, BunnyG, Kitsune, emc
Maniac: xorxes, Espresso, kalel, ?

[Vaporwave]

Bozo, I think I'm uncertain on foodcoats, I will update you accordingly, but for now, keep only dargo and Espresso, possibly include Temasek for spicy flavor

@vapor are we not allowed to swear on the forum?

No? we are allowed, I'm trying to censor myself because I've used far too many 'f-words' in my past games

[bozotheclown]

Town:
Brain - Seems organised and driving an agenda, but also furthering discussion instead of shutting down other ideas.
Me - Well, obviously. But I mean, hmu with any of those questions you may have. I may not always be sure where I should be chiming in or not when over- or under- posting seems to upset people, but I'm generally polite enough to answer anything you decide to ask me directly. Try me! BD

Xorxes - Could be subjective, but I get a solid investigative town read from him. I'd put him in my towncore, if I was picking one. And I guess I am. So, there.

Townlean:
BunnyGo - I like his conviction, if not all the ripples from his playing style crossing most of the group's. Fairly comfortable with townlean but willing to listen to counterproposals.
Worcej - Not getting a scum vibe here with his prodding actions, but getting some weird vibes from his apparent attempts at a low profile. Possible SK vibe? If not then a solid townie.

Jamie - I don't get the scummy vibes EP was citing here. May be based on meta considerations I'm only hearing second hand. Leaning town, if a little more weakly than others.

Vapourwave - Got some weird and confusing vibes earlier, but I'm liking the way he's working on this now.

Kalel - I read him as a zealous newcomer to the webDip meta (and yes I realise the irony in me saying this). So... possible SK candidate but I don't read him as scum until he incriminates himself further.
Darg - I didn't enjoy his focus when it was on me, but I see what he's doing and I like that he's trying to progress the investigation short of clear details on how he's not.
Null:

Rdrivera, - Simply don't know yet.
ND - Simply don't know yet.
Vapour - Simply don't know yet.
Fox - I don't feel him as Scum. His lurker drive seems more like a townie with his own agenda, and he hasn't stuck to it monomaniacally which... actually improves my vibe on him.
EMC - Same. I've been him very thin on the ground in other commitments we're in togehter so I can believe he's busy however irritating that is for us.
Nephthys - Appears to be advancing the investigation, but also seemed to contradict himself once or twice. Will look forward to seeing what develops.
EspressoPatronum - I don't agree with all his conclusions, but still reading him as mistaken rather than malicious and reassured by recent comments by and about him I'm prepared to put him here.
Scumlean:

Scum:
Bozo - On reconsidering... I think I'm actually putting Bozo here now. Combination of the two heuristics, he seems to go from keeping a low profile for long periods of time to pushing his four-row agenda and trying to enlist an increasing number of the players into subscribing to his meta for the game. Maybe he's right? I'm not sure I trust him at this point. Maybe he'll up his clarity later as players who know him better are suggesting.

Temasek - Most people excusing this are saying it's just his meta, and they could well be right. I don't know it, so not judging on that and purely looking at this game I see him posting largely to no purpose and jumping onto existing wagons to try to keep his head down.

-----------------------

I'm missing four people I think. But it's late. I'll work out who I'm missing in the morning.

For now, swapping my vote to

##bozotheclown

This did not change your vote on the bot, I do not think the GMs will except this format either.

[bozotheclown]

Bozo, I think I'm uncertain on foodcoats, I will update you accordingly, but for now, keep only dargo and Espresso, possibly include Temasek for spicy flavor

@vapor are we not allowed to swear on the forum?

No? we are allowed, I'm trying to censor myself because I've used far too many 'f-words' in my past games

OK

[Vaporwave]

My duality in Kitsune's list. I'm both town and null

get on my level