Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

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yavuzovic
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7101 Post by yavuzovic » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:45 pm

Percy Williams wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:46 pm
Yavuzovic really pulled through the game at the end, lynching me was a he best option there. I have to know now though: @Yavuzovic did you know Fox hadn't actually endvoted, or do you believe in the spirit of the rules?
I felt a trick but didn't see it was a fake concede. I was in a good situation and very lazy to make a post about connor (you can see that half post was made in half an hour) I decided to make a fake reaction. I was very surprised though, Fox was making deep reads and until he blinked I really thought it was real.

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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7102 Post by TrPrado » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:37 pm

yavuzovic wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:45 pm
Percy Williams wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:46 pm
Yavuzovic really pulled through the game at the end, lynching me was a he best option there. I have to know now though: @Yavuzovic did you know Fox hadn't actually endvoted, or do you believe in the spirit of the rules?
I felt a trick but didn't see it was a fake concede. I was in a good situation and very lazy to make a post about connor (you can see that half post was made in half an hour) I decided to make a fake reaction. I was very surprised though, Fox was making deep reads and until he blinked I really thought it was real.
Yeah, when doing reaction tests closer to the end of the game, you can’t pull the trigger until everyone has reacted. It’s much more crucial than it is for early game reaction tests.

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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7103 Post by ChippeRock » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:46 am

Regarding my "attempted cheating":

I knew perfectly well that there was no difference between my Role PM and the one printed in the OP. However, I figured that if I sounded convinced enough that I had a way to prove that I was a VT and if I kept dropping vague hints, my confidence would cause everyone to read me as a clear town - this read stuck with me the whole game (though it was also partly due to other intentional aspects of my game). Though it was a big gamble, and it caused me to be the lead wagon partway through the first day, I was able to establish myself as a clear town and last long through the game - this also helped Town because as a clear town, it would be one less Townie that could be mislynched.

Additionally, the reason why Mafia NKed me is because I faked outrage over the Phase extension - making me look like the BA. This was also intentional (though it didn't have quite the effect I was looking for), and I'm not sure if anybody else realized why Mafia's NK suddenly changed over to me in the additional 24 hours.

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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7104 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:56 am

ChippeRock wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:46 am
Regarding my "attempted cheating":

I knew perfectly well that there was no difference between my Role PM and the one printed in the OP. However, I figured that if I sounded convinced enough that I had a way to prove that I was a VT and if I kept dropping vague hints, my confidence would cause everyone to read me as a clear town - this read stuck with me the whole game (though it was also partly due to other intentional aspects of my game). Though it was a big gamble, and it caused me to be the lead wagon partway through the first day, I was able to establish myself as a clear town and last long through the game - this also helped Town because as a clear town, it would be one less Townie that could be mislynched.

Additionally, the reason why Mafia NKed me is because I faked outrage over the Phase extension - making me look like the BA. This was also intentional (though it didn't have quite the effect I was looking for), and I'm not sure if anybody else realized why Mafia's NK suddenly changed over to me in the additional 24 hours.
We know what you were doing. I frankly don't see how you can persist in believing that anyone didn't understand what you were trying to do. No one is complaining because we don't get what you were doing.

The complaint is that we don't think gamesmanship like that should be a part of the game. I have never played on a site that permits players to suggest that the GM made a mistake in their role PM that proves they're VT nor to insinuate that they had conversations with the GM about the error. In my view it is clearly against the spirit of the game, the violation of which is against the rules in the OP.

The GMs disagreed with that assessment and permitted the play. Fine, their game their rules. I would strongly prefer that this tactic be explicitly filed under "against the spirit of the game" and never revisited again. The whole point of the set of rules pertaining to role PMs is that the game is supposed to be one of educated guesses and deductive reasoning, not about who can mechanically clear themselves with winks and insinuations about their role PM. That is the game I signed up to play. If that's not the game I will be getting, so be it, I will simply not play.
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7105 Post by ChippeRock » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:22 am

Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:56 am
ChippeRock wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:46 am
Regarding my "attempted cheating":

I knew perfectly well that there was no difference between my Role PM and the one printed in the OP. However, I figured that if I sounded convinced enough that I had a way to prove that I was a VT and if I kept dropping vague hints, my confidence would cause everyone to read me as a clear town - this read stuck with me the whole game (though it was also partly due to other intentional aspects of my game). Though it was a big gamble, and it caused me to be the lead wagon partway through the first day, I was able to establish myself as a clear town and last long through the game - this also helped Town because as a clear town, it would be one less Townie that could be mislynched.

Additionally, the reason why Mafia NKed me is because I faked outrage over the Phase extension - making me look like the BA. This was also intentional (though it didn't have quite the effect I was looking for), and I'm not sure if anybody else realized why Mafia's NK suddenly changed over to me in the additional 24 hours.
We know what you were doing. I frankly don't see how you can persist in believing that anyone didn't understand what you were trying to do. No one is complaining because we don't get what you were doing.

The complaint is that we don't think gamesmanship like that should be a part of the game. I have never played on a site that permits players to suggest that the GM made a mistake in their role PM that proves they're VT nor to insinuate that they had conversations with the GM about the error. In my view it is clearly against the spirit of the game, the violation of which is against the rules in the OP.

The GMs disagreed with that assessment and permitted the play. Fine, their game their rules. I would strongly prefer that this tactic be explicitly filed under "against the spirit of the game" and never revisited again. The whole point of the set of rules pertaining to role PMs is that the game is supposed to be one of educated guesses and deductive reasoning, not about who can mechanically clear themselves with winks and insinuations about their role PM. That is the game I signed up to play. If that's not the game I will be getting, so be it, I will simply not play.
I never mechanically cleared myself - I easily could of just been scum. Trying to state that I "mechanically cleared" myself is extremely misleading and flat out wrong.

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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7106 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:51 am

Obviously you always could have been scum lying about the whole thing. We know.
The issue is that if what you were saying is true, you have to be town. That's what I mean by mechanically cleared. If we think you're telling the truth then it isn't merely a townread, you might as well be a mod-confirmed Innocent Child, especially when you imply that the moderators have been involved via some kind of claimed error.
That means that all efforts to evaluate your slot's alignment become focused on whether we think the GMs really did make an error in sending you your role PM or not, which is inherently unfalsifiable. It isn't even like actual power roles, where this play pattern also arises, because the subgame involved with true power roles theoretically involves another player--if someone is fakeclaiming then someone else can counterclaim, or scum can counterclaim a town PR if that's advantageous, and so on. The only "player" who could "counterclaim" is the GM. And alleged GM error in sending one PM invariably invites speculation about the others. If the GM made an error, why isn't he addressing this? If the GM didn't make an error, why is this guy openly lying about the mechanics and why are the GMs permitting these lies to continue adding confusion to the game? These aren't abstract questions, they're what I was wondering in the game.

You might have had fun with it and see no problem with it. I found it to be an extremely unenjoyable and irritating shell game that I didn't sign up to play.
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7107 Post by yavuzovic » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:06 pm

I didn't even have a role PM
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7108 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:25 pm

I feel the need to address this ChippeRock issue for the last time.

The GM will never, ever, ever, verify claims made about PMs they may or may not have sent to a player. Claiming "the GM sent me a PM saying xx" is not verifiable b3cuse no GM with a brain would ever confirm or deny such a thing.

This being the case, it is not possible to "mechanically clear" yourself by doing what Chippe did. His claim provided no verifiable information about his alignment or role. Any player, with any role, could have made the same claim and it would likewise have provided no verifiable info.

Any other player reading Chippe's claim, and using a little logic, ought to have been able to conclude this. The only sensible conclusion is "Chippe is annoying, this provides no information".

He didn't break the rules. If you still disagree, quote me the rule he violated. Which rule? It is against the rules to post screenshots of GM PMs. He didn't do that.

Is Chippe an arsehole? Possibly.
Did he break a rule? No.
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7109 Post by ChippeRock » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:56 pm

Did anybody else notice that we broke the record for # of posts in a Mafia game? Though that record probably won't last long if Neph is able to get the 28 players he's looking for...
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7110 Post by ChippeRock » Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:06 pm

@Jamiet For the record though, I kept my abuse strictly in the game. I didn't harass anybody outside of this thread.
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7111 Post by Durga » Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:10 pm

I want to echo what Carl said about GM's not letting someone allude to out of game factors to clear or not clear themselves. Any GM in the future who is in this situation should absolutely clarify that the game is not breakable by PM's. It's not about confirming what's in Chippe's pm.

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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7112 Post by worcej » Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:29 pm

Durga wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:10 pm
I want to echo what Carl said about GM's not letting someone allude to out of game factors to clear or not clear themselves. Any GM in the future who is in this situation should absolutely clarify that the game is not breakable by PM's. It's not about confirming what's in Chippe's pm.
I didn't feel the need to express this because it was obvious the game wasn't breakable via PMs.

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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7113 Post by worcej » Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:40 pm

Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:51 am
Obviously you always could have been scum lying about the whole thing. We know.
The issue is that if what you were saying is true, you have to be town. That's what I mean by mechanically cleared. If we think you're telling the truth then it isn't merely a townread, you might as well be a mod-confirmed Innocent Child, especially when you imply that the moderators have been involved via some kind of claimed error.
That means that all efforts to evaluate your slot's alignment become focused on whether we think the GMs really did make an error in sending you your role PM or not, which is inherently unfalsifiable. It isn't even like actual power roles, where this play pattern also arises, because the subgame involved with true power roles theoretically involves another player--if someone is fakeclaiming then someone else can counterclaim, or scum can counterclaim a town PR if that's advantageous, and so on. The only "player" who could "counterclaim" is the GM. And alleged GM error in sending one PM invariably invites speculation about the others. If the GM made an error, why isn't he addressing this? If the GM didn't make an error, why is this guy openly lying about the mechanics and why are the GMs permitting these lies to continue adding confusion to the game? These aren't abstract questions, they're what I was wondering in the game.

You might have had fun with it and see no problem with it. I found it to be an extremely unenjoyable and irritating shell game that I didn't sign up to play.
Responding to underlined comments:
  1. Nothing would ever mechanically clear anyone. If you believed Chippe, then you assumed he would be town. That 100% on the player and has nothing to do with the setup.
  2. You could've asked a question in game to verify if any errors occurred, which they did not for the majority of the players - I screwed up the role PM for the assassin but addressed it directly with Damo.
  3. As Jamie said, no GM should counter claim anything or help clear anyone. Your issues seem to be contingent on expecting every claim needs to have a counter-claim. If you had an issue with what Chippe did, you should also have a issue with anyone saying "I am town." because there is no counter claim to that.
  4. I think your mistake was focusing on the mechanics or possible GM flaws (that didn't exist) without asking for clarity from the GMs. If you wondered on this so much, next time just ask the GMs publicly or privately - they will address the concern so you can get back to the game at hand.
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7114 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:36 pm

It's my firm stance that such situations shouldn't exist in the first place for me to need GM clarification. Frankly it's bullshit to expect 20+ players to PM you asking if there was a GM error in someone else's PM, especially because you are again put in a spot where your answer might confirm their alignment through inductive reasoning. It's not ironclad 100% "proof" but it is well beyond what should exist in the first place.

Lying about GM error in the role PM to clear yourself should not be a part of Mafia, is my position. End of story. Until that's made a part of the rules I'm sitting out all subsequent games. I do not want to be subject to bush league tactics that are banned in every other ruleset on every other website.
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7115 Post by Vaporwave » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:52 pm

worcej wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:29 pm
I didn't feel the need to express this because it was obvious the game wasn't breakable via PMs.
[/quote]

That's correct, worcej. I think Chippe only wanted to play with people's minds. I've spectated a good portion of Ace Attorney and I felt that he was using his own unique tactic to get reactions or to mess with people's patience. Nothing that interfered with the game's integrity.
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7116 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:13 pm

In hindsight yes it's obvious the game wasn't breakable via PMs. That isn't the point of the objection nor a claim anybody has made. We all know now, with the game over, that ChippeRock was lying and nothing had gone wrong. With perfect information, both to the GMs during play and to the players after the fact, all that is obvious.

As a player in the game at the time it was anything but obvious. Maybe there had been a grammatical error in transposing the VT PMs that got copy-pasted to all players that I was glossing over in my own PM, in which case all VTs could massclaim. If you recall, working on that theory, I actually asked ChippeRock that exact question in the game. If that were the case, there's no chance that the GMs are ever going to confirm to me that they made that mistake with every player, because the game is immediately broken.

Or, maybe it was unique to ChippeRock. Since he isn't permitted by the rules to quote the PM explicitly and since the GMs declined to clarify matters, we the players, with imperfect information on the situation, had no way to know. That unique error would in fact confirm him to be town though--because it means the GMs were intending to send him a VT PM, and sent him one with an error. Confirming that an error was made confirms him town. Confirming an error wasn't made confirms him to be a liar. I do not see how the GMs could have navigated that situation without compromising the game state in some way, which is why I think they remained silent (and if an error had been made, I think that would have been the correct solution).

And that, in turn--like it or not--creates a very distracting shell game that, I think at least, and judging from other communities that have similar rules and complaints expressed by other people in this game I'm not alone on this, are not part of the game I intended to sign up for.
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7117 Post by et » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:22 am

ChippeRock wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:46 am
Regarding my "attempted cheating":

I knew perfectly well that there was no difference between my Role PM and the one printed in the OP. However, I figured that if I sounded convinced enough that I had a way to prove that I was a VT and if I kept dropping vague hints, my confidence would cause everyone to read me as a clear town - this read stuck with me the whole game (though it was also partly due to other intentional aspects of my game). Though it was a big gamble, and it caused me to be the lead wagon partway through the first day, I was able to establish myself as a clear town and last long through the game - this also helped Town because as a clear town, it would be one less Townie that could be mislynched.

Additionally, the reason why Mafia NKed me is because I faked outrage over the Phase extension - making me look like the BA. This was also intentional (though it didn't have quite the effect I was looking for), and I'm not sure if anybody else realized why Mafia's NK suddenly changed over to me in the additional 24 hours.
I had decided to NK you before you faked outrage.
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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7118 Post by TrPrado » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:42 am

Yeah, the Mafia QT went radio silent in the second half of that night, which was really hilarious to watch in the God QT

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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7119 Post by et » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:09 am

And I understand Carl's stance. Chippe's play was not enjoyable for me.
But I think that is some 'Gentleman's agreement'.
When someone disrespects that, punishing him is difficult for GM.

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Re: Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

#7120 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:05 pm

et wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:09 am
And I understand Carl's stance. Chippe's play was not enjoyable for me.
But I think that is some 'Gentleman's agreement'.
When someone disrespects that, punishing him is difficult for GM.
I agree wholly with that point. I might not have been clear enough in divorcing my criticism of the current state of the rules from my opinion on the GMs' decisions. From what it sounds like (that is, ChippeRock PM'd them clearing the tactic with them before posting, and they consented to the tactic being used), I disagree with their decision to allow the tactic, but I think that their decision to allow it was a reasonable judgment call within the current rule set, and since it's their game not mine, their word is final. I think worcej and Jamiet99uk did a great job handling several unexpected twists and turns in an already complicated game and take nothing away from their work.

I am just strongly advocating that such tactics be explicitly banned in the rules for future games, as I think they're clearly outside the spirit of the game and detract from others' experience.
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