Mafia 46 - Ace Attorney - GAME THREAD

[connorcompton]

That's incorrect, and looks a lot more like a scum mindset ("blend in! work to avoid being scumread!") than a town mindset ("keep solving, and if someone's reads are wrong, point that out").

It certainly does. But that doesn't change the fact that if I hadn't changed my behaviour after the beginning then I could've easily been mislynched and town would be closer to failing.

So, my counter-argument to that is that you're scum, and during Night 1 in the mafia chat, your scummates gave you some coaching, and that's what actually changed your behavior.

Also, big question here: can you explain where anyone accuses you of changing your behavior? Because I don't see Yavuz making that claim in his post you quote/respond to.

Trying to explain away scummy things you haven't been accused of is... kinda scummy.

4.

0. I like being light. I wasn't expecting every single word I say to be deeply analysed. It looks like I have to stay serious or make it very clear I am joking. Don't worry, it's not you, it's me.

Well well, did he notice his mistake ha?

This.
Also, do you have anything to say about anything else I've just written?

[Foxcastle]

It certainly does. But that doesn't change the fact that if I hadn't changed my behaviour after the beginning then I could've easily been mislynched and town would be closer to failing.

So, my counter-argument to that is that you're scum, and during Night 1 in the mafia chat, your scummates gave you some coaching, and that's what actually changed your behavior.

Also, big question here: can you explain where anyone accuses you of changing your behavior? Because I don't see Yavuz making that claim in his post you quote/respond to.

Trying to explain away scummy things you haven't been accused of is... kinda scummy.

4.

0. I like being light. I wasn't expecting every single word I say to be deeply analysed. It looks like I have to stay serious or make it very clear I am joking. Don't worry, it's not you, it's me.

Well well, did he notice his mistake ha?

This.
Also, do you have anything to say about anything else I've just written?

Huh. I don't actually know what mistake Yavuz is referring to. But it seems you do. So that's suspicious.

[Jamiet99uk]

##CALL GM, public concedes are not allowed right?

That is correct.

[Foxcastle]

Also, do you have anything to say about anything else I've just written?

I've been skimming your backgame, but sure.

Scared, then relieved, then angry. You have to bring me on these rollercoasters with you Fox.

I'm honestly not convinced you're scum Fox, I just think it's likely. A re-read of Day 1 has supported that.

The first half of this seems calculated. "Look, I had Very Townie Emotions!" But it could be real, as you seem pretty even-keeled.

The second half seems hedgey. "Look, I'm honestly confused and uncertain, so I can't be scum!" And it's totally fine to be confused and uncertain—look at me, I'm wholesale confused and uncertain—but I just find the phrasing off. "Honestly." "Not convinced." "Likely."

Also, apparently no reaction to Yavuz's reaction to my reaction test. Straight into defending yourself from his reads on you. As if you weren't interested in what his reaction said about his alignment, but were more interested in pushing back on his reads of you.

[Jamiet99uk]

VOTE COUNT 9.1

Connorcompton (1) - Yavuzovic

Unvoted: Foxcastle

Currently CONNORCOMPTON is set to be lynched.

24 hours and 55 minutes remain in Day 9.

[Foxcastle]

Here's my take on Day 1:

Foxcastle:
A lot of Day 1 is unproductive conversation, so a lot to be ignored. Though something I seemed to notice is Fox is keen to ask et about his Mafia experience,
but never asks anybody else who he hasn't seen before. This could be because et said something that made him want to know that, or, he is trying to learn about
his new Mafia partners during D1. He also says:
"Damo is looking at the thread. I assume he is catching up and will post something this morning. If he doesn't, that's worrying." Which could be interpreted as
a hint to damo to get the hell on the forum before people suspect him.

Both of these perspectives are incorrect. Knowing about player experience is important for being able to judge ability. For example, knowing that et is experienced at offline mafia-like games means he might know about bussing or about how to sow confusion. Knowing that you're brand new means we can make educated guesses about your own play.

His line "Town should train themselves not to answer the questions they ask." gives me similar thoughts.

This is ridiculous. Of course town shouldn't answer their own questions, because that short-circuits getting actual answers from scum.

For example, if you ask somebody, "Why did you take this action?" they have to explain it. If they're scum, they can lie about it, and we can catch them in the lie.

If you phrase it as, "Why did you take this action? Was it for X reason?" then they don't have to come up with an answer. They can just run with the pre-conceived notion that was in their inquisitor's head already and keep the real reason secret.

I made this statement because a lot of people were either doing that, or were jumping into answer questions posed to other people, which similarly short-circuits the information gathering.

At the end of the day, he has a really awful attitude to Carl, not answering his question because it's apparently so obvious. I don't think this is scum indicative,
but I just hate this behaviour.

LOL, well, I might have been rude, but Carl got as good as he gave. But let's be clear, there were some questions from Carl I was rude about not answering, but I did answer other questions he posed.

During the night, not a lot interesting happens. He doesn't interact with the Mafia very much, all of his other interactions seem perfectly normal, nothing there
caught my eye as scum.

FlaviusAetius:
Firstly, Flavius says Balki is smart and experienced. I don't see what the fuss is about. With the knowledge Balki is Mafia, this doesn't suggest Flavius is too.
I don't see anything in that comment that is scum indicative. Him and Fox both advocate for NO JOKE PHASE, since both of them are doing this, this is where that
point ends. Flavius did not want to lynch lurkers, his attempt was to dismantle the bozo wagon and move it to TrPrado first, without paying mind to his own wagon.
This seems like very illogical play for Mafia, definitely a point in his favour. And he remained completely calm until he eventually voted bozo.

During the night, he remained heated and angry at TrPrado and calling out those who voted bozo immediately and never switched, drawing even more attention to
himself as scum makes no sense.

Let's take a look at the votes:

DAY 1

bozotheclown (11) — Percy Williams, et, damo666, Squigs44, ChippeRock, connorcompton, Carl Tuckerson, FlaviusAetius, rdrivera2005, Nephthys, Tom Bombadil
FlaviusAetius (7) — Balki Bartokomous, dargorygel, Foxcastle, MoscowFleet, TrPrado, Durga, bozotheclown
CruaaderReynauld (2) — ND, teacon7
ChippeRock (1) — EspressoPatronum
Percy Williams (1) — xorxes
No‑Lynch (1) — CruaaderReynauld

Two scum voted bozo, they both stayed there likely because it was an easy lynch, that they couldn't (shouldn't anyway) be harassed for too much.
Two scum voted Flavius. Balki and peterFleet. I would argue this is because they know Flavius is town. They would not risk lynching Mafia. This would mean
Fox is Mafia and 3 are on Flavius. I think that makes sense.

I would like to go through other days and do the same sort of thing.

Can you clarify this? The scum knew Flavius was town, yes. But they also knew Bozo was town. And Percy, too. The only potential scum wagon on D1 was MoscowFleet and that died off well before EoD.

One of the things that strikes me about your EOD1 is that you moved off of Bozo to TrPrado, and then back to Bozo. That indicates to me that you knew they were all town and so you were free to OMGUS-vote TrPrado.

Oh, that's curious. You voted him, "For all over the reasons I have already stated plus the last comment he directed at me sounded oh so much like Mafia trying to scare the new guy."

THIS is first-time scum. Know how I know? Because I did it myself when I rolled scum in my very first game, too.

[connorcompton]

Here's my take on Day 1:

Foxcastle:
A lot of Day 1 is unproductive conversation, so a lot to be ignored. Though something I seemed to notice is Fox is keen to ask et about his Mafia experience,
but never asks anybody else who he hasn't seen before. This could be because et said something that made him want to know that, or, he is trying to learn about
his new Mafia partners during D1. He also says:
"Damo is looking at the thread. I assume he is catching up and will post something this morning. If he doesn't, that's worrying." Which could be interpreted as
a hint to damo to get the hell on the forum before people suspect him.

Both of these perspectives are incorrect. Knowing about player experience is important for being able to judge ability. For example, knowing that et is experienced at offline mafia-like games means he might know about bussing or about how to sow confusion. Knowing that you're brand new means we can make educated guesses about your own play.

His line "Town should train themselves not to answer the questions they ask." gives me similar thoughts.

This is ridiculous. Of course town shouldn't answer their own questions, because that short-circuits getting actual answers from scum.

For example, if you ask somebody, "Why did you take this action?" they have to explain it. If they're scum, they can lie about it, and we can catch them in the lie.

If you phrase it as, "Why did you take this action? Was it for X reason?" then they don't have to come up with an answer. They can just run with the pre-conceived notion that was in their inquisitor's head already and keep the real reason secret.

I made this statement because a lot of people were either doing that, or were jumping into answer questions posed to other people, which similarly short-circuits the information gathering.

At the end of the day, he has a really awful attitude to Carl, not answering his question because it's apparently so obvious. I don't think this is scum indicative,
but I just hate this behaviour.

LOL, well, I might have been rude, but Carl got as good as he gave. But let's be clear, there were some questions from Carl I was rude about not answering, but I did answer other questions he posed.

During the night, not a lot interesting happens. He doesn't interact with the Mafia very much, all of his other interactions seem perfectly normal, nothing there
caught my eye as scum.

FlaviusAetius:
Firstly, Flavius says Balki is smart and experienced. I don't see what the fuss is about. With the knowledge Balki is Mafia, this doesn't suggest Flavius is too.
I don't see anything in that comment that is scum indicative. Him and Fox both advocate for NO JOKE PHASE, since both of them are doing this, this is where that
point ends. Flavius did not want to lynch lurkers, his attempt was to dismantle the bozo wagon and move it to TrPrado first, without paying mind to his own wagon.
This seems like very illogical play for Mafia, definitely a point in his favour. And he remained completely calm until he eventually voted bozo.

During the night, he remained heated and angry at TrPrado and calling out those who voted bozo immediately and never switched, drawing even more attention to
himself as scum makes no sense.

Let's take a look at the votes:

DAY 1

bozotheclown (11) — Percy Williams, et, damo666, Squigs44, ChippeRock, connorcompton, Carl Tuckerson, FlaviusAetius, rdrivera2005, Nephthys, Tom Bombadil
FlaviusAetius (7) — Balki Bartokomous, dargorygel, Foxcastle, MoscowFleet, TrPrado, Durga, bozotheclown
CruaaderReynauld (2) — ND, teacon7
ChippeRock (1) — EspressoPatronum
Percy Williams (1) — xorxes
No‑Lynch (1) — CruaaderReynauld

Two scum voted bozo, they both stayed there likely because it was an easy lynch, that they couldn't (shouldn't anyway) be harassed for too much.
Two scum voted Flavius. Balki and peterFleet. I would argue this is because they know Flavius is town. They would not risk lynching Mafia. This would mean
Fox is Mafia and 3 are on Flavius. I think that makes sense.

I would like to go through other days and do the same sort of thing.

Can you clarify this? The scum knew Flavius was town, yes. But they also knew Bozo was town. And Percy, too. The only potential scum wagon on D1 was MoscowFleet and that died off well before EoD.

One of the things that strikes me about your EOD1 is that you moved off of Bozo to TrPrado, and then back to Bozo. That indicates to me that you knew they were all town and so you were free to OMGUS-vote TrPrado.

Oh, that's curious. You voted him, "For all over the reasons I have already stated plus the last comment he directed at me sounded oh so much like Mafia trying to scare the new guy."

THIS is first-time scum. Know how I know? Because I did it myself when I rolled scum in my very first game, too.

1. I understand knowing player experience is important, but you only asked et.
2. I undertand this aswell, in fact, given you also made this point to Percy, I'll discount it completely.
3. My vote analysis is saying that it doesn't make sense for Flavius to be scum, since that would be a stupid move for Mafia to make. If Flavius isn't scum, then it's going to be you.

[connorcompton]

On to Day 2:

Foxcastle:
Fox almost immediately votes Moscow, he didn't state a reason very clearly, but I believe it was to 'make him talk'.
He then very quickly says that xorxes not speaking isn't scum indicative and uses that as justification for not wanting to vote for him.
He also still claims that lynching lurkers is imperative. This is what is known as insane.
When the judge makes his decision, Fox tries supporting a tie, before settling on EP. This day is less scummy for Fox.

During the night, Fox doesn't say much

FlaviusAetius:
He is still convinced TrPrado is scum, and then makes the point that Just because someone puts in effort, it doesn't mean that they're automatically town. This is a very good point.
I can see arguments for this being scum and town, but his press against TrPrado seems genuine.
Flavius suggests that the judge 'rig' the system by selecting an 'obvious town' along with what they think is Mafia to get a Mafia kill. If he is Mafia,
saying that would tie him into voting for the non-obvious choice, which could very well be Mafia, so not a wise thing to say.
Multiple times he demands recognition for the start of the TrPrado wagon. This sets himself up for failure if he were to continue this persistence until TrPrado flips town, so this seems towny.
When the judge made his decision, Flavius then gets annoyed, very angry these two were chosen, I don't think this means much though actually. Flavius also
has a line said to damo very similar to what Fox did before, so consider that cancelled out.
The difference between Fox and Flavius with who they wanted to vote for, was that Fox wanted a tie, then EP to be lynched, Flavius wanted EP to be voted for,
then a tie, before et at the end. Mafia does not make that sort of pregression.
Flavius shows signs of scumminess when he tries to back away from TrPrado near the end of the day, although he didn't seem provoked by anything.

During the night, Flavius gets very angry at Chippe for 'ruining the tie', which comes across as 'look at me I disapproved of that lynch', so some co-ordinated
scum voting was definitely a possibility.

Here are the D2 votes:

EspressoPatronum (10) — TrPrado, damo666, Foxcastle, et, Nephthys, xorxes Percy Williams, Balki Bartokomous, teacon7, ChippeRock
et (9) — rdrivera2005, connorcompton, EspressoPatronum, Squigs44, ND, Durga, Tom Bombadil, peterlund, FlaviusAetius

Four Mafia voted for EP. One for et. Obviously scum wanted to lynch EP. Flavius changed his vote to et at the same time Chippe voted for EP. If Chippe voted
differently then et would've been lynched. This maneuver to seem town is too risky for Scum-Flavius.

I will do more of this tomorrow.

[yavuzovic]

I hate to bring this up but... this is, like, my first game. Before D1 I had ZERO experience on how to act. I'm always used to acting this way with friends, I have now learned to adapt to online, it has been a wonderful experience.
Also, town will and should still react to other people's scumreads on them and try and change their behaviour to suit that. Sorry if that seems dishonest, but conformity here helps the town.

I know, I understand. I don't judge a behavior of yours that you might not know. But admitting that you used some weird expressions that could be about your mafia role PM.

[yavuzovic]

You did a great job connor, I was Day 1 lynch in my first game as mafia. Now I'm truly convinced you are the mafia one, the reaction test doesn't make Fox town and he surely is very scummy, but I can't even compare it with how much you are. I'm sorry, but few scumslips and wrong words, be more careful next time.

I'm not going to vote end because I was too sure to lynch sheepsaysmeep once, hammered the final lynch and lost the game. That traumatised me about hammering.

I didn't read all posts by Fox, the recent ones are left to tomorrow. Fox is making some sided reads too and I would like to make the final decision with calm head.

Good night, connor

[connorcompton]

You did a great job connor, I was Day 1 lynch in my first game as mafia. Now I'm truly convinced you are the mafia one, the reaction test doesn't make Fox town and he surely is very scummy, but I can't even compare it with how much you are. I'm sorry, but few scumslips and wrong words, be more careful next time.

I'm not going to vote end because I was too sure to lynch sheepsaysmeep once, hammered the final lynch and lost the game. That traumatised me about hammering.

I didn't read all posts by Fox, the recent ones are left to tomorrow. Fox is making some sided reads too and I would like to make the final decision with calm head.

Good night, connor

This is heartbreaking.

[Jamiet99uk]

VOTE COUNT 9.2

connorcompton (1) yavuzovic

Non-votes: connorcompton
Unvoted: Foxcastle

Currently CONNORCOMPTON is set to be lynched.
Connorcompton and Foxcastle must post a valid vote.

19 hours and 17 minutes remain in Day 9.

[connorcompton]

I'll post mine now.

##VOTE Foxcastle

Please yavuz, never say your mind is completely made up.
I will continue this afternoon.

[yavuzovic]

I'm very confused at this point

[Foxcastle]

##VOTE CONNOR

I'm going to do one more ISO of both of you.

And I also really want to think more about the Balki push on Flavius and the competing RB claims between Damo and Connor. Those are each a big point in favor of each of you being town. Right now, I think it's more likely that Balki saw an opportunity to push Flavius to a possible mislynch than that he was bussing. The competing roleblock claims is iffier, and that means it was either a plan to sacrifice Damo at the risk of bringing a huge amount of attention to Connor, or some kind of error.

[Jamiet99uk]

VOTE COUNT 9.3

connorcompton (1) - yavuzovic
Foxcastle (1) - connorcompton

Unvoted: Foxcastle

Currently NOBODY is set to be lynched.

Foxcastle must post a valid vote.

SIX hours and 5 minutes remain in Day 9.

[yavuzovic]

I really would like to hear what this RB thing actually is

[Foxcastle]

Connor, in general was your strategy to read up on the thread before you started typing comments, or did you make notes and comments as you went?

[Foxcastle]

I really would like to hear what this RB thing actually is

Damo claimed he was roleblocked on Day 4, about 16 hours after the Day had started, so I guess Damo was showing up what would be morning for him. (He's UK, right?)

Connor also claimed he was roleblocked, showing up to the thread to make his claim 21 hours after the Day had started, so early evening for him (also UK).

So both of them had been absent from the thread for a while before showing up to claim.

I was RB'd.

I think Chips is BA.

Teacon more sus than Fox so

##VOTE Teacon

Haven't fully caught up yet, but this is important so...

I was roleblocked.

Why is a question I haven't figured out the answer to yet.

[Foxcastle]

I'm incorrect on the timing. For Damo, it would have been early afternoon, and for Connor he showed up early evening. In any case, they had both been missing from the thread for a bit, but Connor claimed 5 hours after Damo, and apparently had not seen Damo's claim yet.