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Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:58 am**

Mafia Goon normally returns as "Vanilla" in other setups, when scanned by something that determines *role* rather than *alignment*...

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:01 am**

not quoting for the sake of space saving but all in response to worce

actually town can still win if we lose majority at one point with an SK still in it, it would just take a really unlikely series of NKs and lynches

why do you think damo is sk, you just sort of threw that out there and accepted it as fact

finally I don't know why you're discounting the possibility of foxc lying. If he was claiming doc to self prez, it's a very good claim for scum in that it could be one of his options for fake claim. As SK it's an important town role that wolves aren't likely to instantly target since it has a delay, if he needs to fake claim it's one that makes relative sense to me. It also explains why he needed to claim jail since he assumed that the wolves would kill jamie and needed a reason why he wasn't able to heal. Jamie didn't die but he went along with his plan anyways, but didn't think about how the reason cfox was probably killed by scum is that scum wanted to dodge the doc heal, and not kill jamie, as if they had the jailor and jailed the doc they would just kill the cop

you seem to be discounting foxc lying under the idea that he's not playing 100% optimally, but if he was playing 100% optimally he wouldn't be under suspicion in the first place

I honestly think foxc might be SK with the way his claims have shaped out, it explains the weird "jail" and NK choice combo

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:04 am**

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:01 am
Jamie didn't die but he went along with his plan anyways, but didn't think about how the reason cfox was probably killed by scum is that scum wanted to dodge the doc heal, and not kill jamie, as if they had the jailor and jailed the doc they would just kill the cop

Why would they not want me dead?

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:08 am**

worcej wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:56 am

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:42 am
An individual must perform the kill yes. its not just a big giant robot
Rephrase - if they don't have a goon or the Ninja, they cannot NK?

Also - the other civs are not default mafia goons if they are labeled as Vanilla correct?

Vanilla can mean any alignment
any role can perform the mafia night kill

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:14 am**

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:04 am

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:01 am
Jamie didn't die but he went along with his plan anyways, but didn't think about how the reason cfox was probably killed by scum is that scum wanted to dodge the doc heal, and not kill jamie, as if they had the jailor and jailed the doc they would just kill the cop
Why would they not want me dead?

? I was saying they would just kill you? You're the cop, are you not

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:19 am**

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:30 am
hey bozo, what's your take on the current foxc/damo/me situation

I haven't taken the time to sort all this out, but I am not inclined to believe Foxcastle.

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:23 am**

I have only skimmed since EOD now that I'm back, and am about to be done for the day, but I do not understand why scum would jail me and then *not* kill Jamiet. The only thing I can think is that they are worried about Germany (the watcher) being in play, but they then run a significant risk of Jamiet getting a scan off. And that doesn't explain why they would risk implicating Damo or LordQuas as Universal Backup (possibly, though, they thought there was a chance I was lying about saving Jamiet and would try to save Crimson since he was townclear).

The Universal Backup means it's between Damo and Quas, and of those, I ##VOTE DAMO

Also, I still think DemonRHK is scum.

If the watcher saw anything (or should have seen something and didn't), now would be a good time to let us know...

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:24 am**

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:01 am
not quoting for the sake of space saving but all in response to worce

actually town can still win if we lose majority at one point with an SK still in it, it would just take a really unlikely series of NKs and lynches

why do you think damo is sk, you just sort of threw that out there and accepted it as fact

finally I don't know why you're discounting the possibility of foxc lying. If he was claiming doc to self prez, it's a very good claim for scum in that it could be one of his options for fake claim. As SK it's an important town role that wolves aren't likely to instantly target since it has a delay, if he needs to fake claim it's one that makes relative sense to me. It also explains why he needed to claim jail since he assumed that the wolves would kill jamie and needed a reason why he wasn't able to heal. Jamie didn't die but he went along with his plan anyways, but didn't think about how the reason cfox was probably killed by scum is that scum wanted to dodge the doc heal, and not kill jamie, as if they had the jailor and jailed the doc they would just kill the cop

you seem to be discounting foxc lying under the idea that he's not playing 100% optimally, but if he was playing 100% optimally he wouldn't be under suspicion in the first place

I honestly think foxc might be SK with the way his claims have shaped out, it explains the weird "jail" and NK choice combo

This seems like a reasonable explanation for Foxcastle claiming being jailed while CrimsonFox was NKed. Of course if you are the universal backup and scum, you could have jailed Foxcastle and killed CrimsonFox to set this up.

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:27 am**

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:14 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:04 am

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:01 am
Jamie didn't die but he went along with his plan anyways, but didn't think about how the reason cfox was probably killed by scum is that scum wanted to dodge the doc heal, and not kill jamie, as if they had the jailor and jailed the doc they would just kill the cop
Why would they not want me dead?
? I was saying they would just kill you? You're the cop, are you not

Yes, I am. So why did they not kill me?

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:27 am**

bozotheclown wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:24 am

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:01 am
not quoting for the sake of space saving but all in response to worce

actually town can still win if we lose majority at one point with an SK still in it, it would just take a really unlikely series of NKs and lynches

why do you think damo is sk, you just sort of threw that out there and accepted it as fact

finally I don't know why you're discounting the possibility of foxc lying. If he was claiming doc to self prez, it's a very good claim for scum in that it could be one of his options for fake claim. As SK it's an important town role that wolves aren't likely to instantly target since it has a delay, if he needs to fake claim it's one that makes relative sense to me. It also explains why he needed to claim jail since he assumed that the wolves would kill jamie and needed a reason why he wasn't able to heal. Jamie didn't die but he went along with his plan anyways, but didn't think about how the reason cfox was probably killed by scum is that scum wanted to dodge the doc heal, and not kill jamie, as if they had the jailor and jailed the doc they would just kill the cop

you seem to be discounting foxc lying under the idea that he's not playing 100% optimally, but if he was playing 100% optimally he wouldn't be under suspicion in the first place

I honestly think foxc might be SK with the way his claims have shaped out, it explains the weird "jail" and NK choice combo
This seems like a reasonable explanation for Foxcastle claiming being jailed while CrimsonFox was NKed. Of course if you are the universal backup and scum, you could have jailed Foxcastle and killed CrimsonFox to set this up.

There's no need for me to risk that, I'm already one of the most widely town read players, I could easily have gotten foxc lynched over darg yesterday as well. If I'm anti-town I'm SK, no way in hell I'm a backup or aligned with wolves right now

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:29 am**

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:27 am

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:14 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:04 am

Why would they not want me dead?
? I was saying they would just kill you? You're the cop, are you not
Yes, I am. So why did they not kill me?

Well that's what I was asking. I came up with a theory where Foxc is SK but that's the only logical explanation beyond a misplay that I can think of

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:31 am**

me being a wolf makes no logical sense in this game state

I am always SK or town

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:10 am**

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:08 am

worcej wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:56 am

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:42 am
An individual must perform the kill yes. its not just a big giant robot
Rephrase - if they don't have a goon or the Ninja, they cannot NK?

Also - the other civs are not default mafia goons if they are labeled as Vanilla correct?
Vanilla can mean any alignment
any role can perform the mafia night kill

Alright, take my no more NK out of my analysis. Still doesn’t debunk the whole thing.

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:11 am**

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:31 am
me being a wolf makes no logical sense in this game state

I am always SK or town

I honestly don’t know your play well enough to arrive at any actual conclusion like that. You could easily be wolfing right now.

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:25 am**

worcej wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:11 am

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:31 am
me being a wolf makes no logical sense in this game state

I am always SK or town
I honestly don’t know your play well enough to arrive at any actual conclusion like that. You could easily be wolfing right now.

I'd have to be an idiot or throwing, I ALWAYS kill the cop instead of the Mason hard defending me

I don't bus darg there ever unless foxc is also a teammate, and then I don't promote creating a foxc v me scenario like this. Plus I don't think foxc and darg are teammates based on statements I've said earlier

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:29 am**

Hmm actually if foxc is exactly Mafia Doctor that might be a reason to kill darg over him, but then I don't know why he would claim jailed that'd be straight wack

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:02 am**

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:01 am
not quoting for the sake of space saving but all in response to worce

actually town can still win if we lose majority at one point with an SK still in it, it would just take a really unlikely series of NKs and lynches

why do you think damo is sk, you just sort of threw that out there and accepted it as fact

[...snip...]

First two that I want to respond to:

I don't see how we could win if we ever lose majority. Let's use the scenario of it's 2-3-1 on D5, which is the most likely way majority will be lost. 3-3-1 or better would require either a skipped lynch at this point or a scum NK targeting the SK and an SK hitting a town. Best bet for us is the scum NK on SK and SK hitting a scum, which would make D5 be 4-2-1, assuming a town mislynch right now.

To even keep the game going in the 2-3-1 situation on D5, the lynch vote has to either tie or lynch a scum (which wouldn't ever happen in a 2-3-1 unless the scum want to stay hidden and bus at that point). EOD Fuckery also makes it landing on a tie to be rare - there are 3 people who are coordinating in a QT to ensure a lynch goes through of some sort and then to top it all off: us+SK have to all be on a scum player lynch to even keep the game going. Then on N5, it would require one of two options, with the third just ending the game anyways:
1. The NK hits a town and the SK hits a scum = 1-2-1. Same situation evolves as the above one. As I've already said, it's pretty much SK vs scum at that point, meaning we lost.
2. The NK hits the SK and SK hits a scum = 2-2-1. Best situation and highly unlikely. Then N5 turns to shit because if the SK misses a scum, we're back to the whole it's tied thing and again we lost - it's scum vs SK at that point still.
3. The NK hits the SK and the SK hits a town or the NK and SK hit the same town = 1-3-1. Game over.
I've explained why I think Damo is the SK already on N4. That was recent enough so I won't add that. I do think he has spent a lot more effort hunting the SK than scum this game, which can entirely be an intentional move to make us believe he isn't the SK. Or he is possibly scum, which also fits the narrative. What fundamentally separates him from you is I do not think you're the SK based on how you've played, but I could be reading you wrong since this is the first game I've played with you.

So, how do we win if we lose majority in your mind? The math doesn't add up (unless I am missing something obscure) and you trying to sell that makes me more sure that my vote is at the right spot, because we are at a pretty critical lynch right now.

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:41 am**

worcej wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:02 am

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:01 am
not quoting for the sake of space saving but all in response to worce

actually town can still win if we lose majority at one point with an SK still in it, it would just take a really unlikely series of NKs and lynches

why do you think damo is sk, you just sort of threw that out there and accepted it as fact

[...snip...]
First two that I want to respond to:
I don't see how we could win if we ever lose majority. Let's use the scenario of it's 2-3-1 on D5, which is the most likely way majority will be lost. 3-3-1 or better would require either a skipped lynch at this point or a scum NK targeting the SK and an SK hitting a town. Best bet for us is the scum NK on SK and SK hitting a scum, which would make D5 be 4-2-1, assuming a town mislynch right now.

To even keep the game going in the 2-3-1 situation on D5, the lynch vote has to either tie or lynch a scum (which wouldn't ever happen in a 2-3-1 unless the scum want to stay hidden and bus at that point). EOD Fuckery also makes it landing on a tie to be rare - there are 3 people who are coordinating in a QT to ensure a lynch goes through of some sort and then to top it all off: us+SK have to all be on a scum player lynch to even keep the game going. Then on N5, it would require one of two options, with the third just ending the game anyways:
The NK hits a town and the SK hits a scum = 1-2-1. Same situation evolves as the above one. As I've already said, it's pretty much SK vs scum at that point, meaning we lost.

The NK hits the SK and SK hits a scum = 2-2-1. Best situation and highly unlikely. Then N5 turns to shit because if the SK misses a scum, we're back to the whole it's tied thing and again we lost - it's scum vs SK at that point still.

The NK hits the SK and the SK hits a town or the NK and SK hit the same town = 1-3-1. Game over.
I've explained why I think Damo is the SK already on N4. That was recent enough so I won't add that. I do think he has spent a lot more effort hunting the SK than scum this game, which can entirely be an intentional move to make us believe he isn't the SK. Or he is possibly scum, which also fits the narrative. What fundamentally separates him from you is I do not think you're the SK based on how you've played, but I could be reading you wrong since this is the first game I've played with you.
So, how do we win if we lose majority in your mind? The math doesn't add up (unless I am missing something obscure) and you trying to sell that makes me more sure that my vote is at the right spot, because we are at a pretty critical lynch right now.

5v3v1 atm

3-3-1 at SoD tomorrow is possible with a doc save/jailkeeper save, one lynched town today, and a dead town at night, and I don't think I need to explain to you how it's possible to come back with that

if we lynch scum, then two town die in night it goes to 3v2v1, another town lynch and it goes to 2v2v1, which we can come back from in a multitude of ways

scum hits SK
scum killed is saved/blocked

also it's possible to recover from a 2v3v1 if all town and SK vote together, since tied lynch doesn't kill here right? I didn't say it was likely but it's still POSSIBLE

don't know why you bothered to waste all your time posting about this though it doesn't' seem very productive

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:42 am**

oh wait you're the guy who has his crackhead theory abt me being a wolf cause he """knows""" damo is an SK for a mysterious unexplained reason

nah nvm I now understand why you would waste that much time writing up that entire post instead of trying to solve lol

Posted: **Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:09 am**

LordQuas wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:29 am
Hmm actually if foxc is exactly Mafia Doctor that might be a reason to kill darg over him, but then I don't know why he would claim jailed that'd be straight wack

I don't know if a mafia doctor is preferable to the ninja, but if the scum knew the universal backup is not an active role, Foxcastle could claim to be jailed for no other reason than to set up you and damo. Or, maybe he was really jailed, but by a mafia jailor, in case Jamie scanned him. By leaving Jamie alive, Jamie could have confirmed Foxcastle was jailed.

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