MINI MAFIA IV GAME THREAD

[bozotheclown]

The Nepthys interaction with Brain and my gut feeling is telling me it´s Brain.

##vote Brain

What do you think of the back and forth between Jamiet and brain about brain being the Doctor right before Jamiet was lynched?

On my first read, I give a townread to Brain because of his interaction with Jamiet on D2 and also because Jamiet reaction to Brain claim seems like he truly believe. But when I did a full re-read after Nephthys flip, the way he just skipped Brain on all his reads (the same he did with Jamiet until Worcej claim) made me believe it's Brain. I think it's a lot easier for Jamiet to fake believing Brain then for Nephthys to just "miss" a town player.
The way Brain started D2 claiming there is no Vig and pushing Bozo in a weird way also strike me as scummy.
I know it's not a solid case, but after reading again my scum read on DrCjG just melt and I think Bozo is town he was key on avoiding me to be shot instead of Nephthys.

I agree this interaction could be faked, as well as brainbomb catching Jamie with his role block claim, but I still think DrCJG is more likely the scum.

[brainbomb]

I really cant tell if rivera is attacking me out of opportunity or out of sincerity.

or out of lack of precise readthru of me.

I dont feel like its DRCGJC.

ive reread bozos side of bozo vs jamie and bozo is town in alot of the moments.

I guess that makes it really unlikely that xorx, or bozo are trying to set up me to be next.

which POE puts it literally at rivera being scum. and I need to figure out what if anything actually proves that.

I admittedly have not looked thoroughly.

##vote DRCGJC
All I know is bozo case was ok. and nothing from CJGC day 2 or today really has been exceptional enough to earn my trust.

[brainbomb]

but I dont feel good about it ftr

[brainbomb]

I know that as annoying, sporadic, and argumentative I can be as town that it also isnt helpful sometimes.

I feel the score against DRCJC feels a bit too obvious, but Ive been wrong in fighting the consensus before.

this isnt like when bozo got ezio in vdip. bozo let me lead the mislynch and then tried to blame it on me. I dont particularly get that vibe from bozo on tone or volume.
but DRCJC is the one who talked to me about jamie luring bozo onto xorx being a w/v interaction. which DR doesnt really benefit in doing there as a wolf.

[brainbomb]

Im also aware if DRCGJC is a ml that im basically the next lynch by everyone.

[brainbomb]

does anyone have any reason to think its xorxes?

[brainbomb]

ive thought about Jamie clamoring for bozo to tie it. and what the reason would be to bus there and its just weird. its bizarre to think jamie does it but hes a big risk taker as scum. and ive just underestimated him alot.

it deserves a pause at the very least

[brainbomb]

for me 2 moments this game have impacted me most


■Jamie p6-8
key factors
-bozo no lynch
-neph on damo
-jamie on TDHfrance
-myself on xorxes


■and the other moment is Jamie EOD1 trying to cfd xorxes by begging bozo.


what this means to me is ive actually had all these theories why Jamie acted so funny, and never even realized, maybe I caused it? by just simply voting xorxes.

##Vote xorxes

[rdrivera2005]

does anyone have any reason to think its xorxes?

I had some fears it could be Xorxes, but it doesn't fit with Jamiet actions EOD1 and with Nephthys realist that also includes Jamiet.

[rdrivera2005]

for me 2 moments this game have impacted me most


■Jamie p6-8
key factors
-bozo no lynch
-neph on damo
-jamie on TDHfrance
-myself on xorxes


■and the other moment is Jamie EOD1 trying to cfd xorxes by begging bozo.


what this means to me is ive actually had all these theories why Jamie acted so funny, and never even realized, maybe I caused it? by just simply voting xorxes.

##Vote xorxes

I think the lynch today is DRCJ and if for some reason we are wrong we need to do some hard re-reading to find the last one.
I will not vote Xorxes or Bozo today.
##vote DrCJG

Dr, if by any chance you are town do an last effort to give us some input for later.

[DrCJG]

My bad, ##VOTE rdr

As bad as thdfrance's votes from D1 looked, considering that we know damo, worcej, and RagingIke are all town, his switch from worcej to damo when the vote was damo 4 worcej 3 RagingIke 2 Jamie 1 does not make much sense as scum, although he might have just wanted to go along with the majority.

Fair point, I suppose town!thd's vote on Worcej following Damo's request could have been a joke vote in his mind or to see where votes go with it 2-2... thus his vote onto Damo could have been his first real vote based on reading arguments against Damo (@thd, if you are town... this is a good example of why it helps town for you to give some reasoning).

I don't see a good reason for scum!thd to make that vote change... ##unvote
@ Worcej - thoughts?

@ Worcej - I didn't see an answer to this...

I started the day pretty confident that it was rdr, but as I reread D1 it really felt more unlikely that all 3 scum (Jamie, Neph, and ~thd/rdr) on Damo os close to EOD.... and I just don't have a good reason for scum!thd/rdr to have moved from Worcej onto Damo to cause this...

I think we have all honed in on D1... because I think the last scum is to be caught by determining the full motives behind Jamie's actions.

Unfortunately, if yall lynch me and see that I am town you will have the same information as me....

• rdr is the last scum... thd just got nervous sitting on Worcej without a reason and decided to follow the majority onto Damo... Jamie wigged out cause his newer scummates had all joined the wagon with him and saw an opportunity to get me and bozo to help lynch Xorxes...
• Bozo is the last scum... Jamie saw an opportunity to lynch Xorxes and his disregard for Bozo's potential tie was because both Xorxes and Damo were town and he figured someone would shift to break the tie... which would bring the town down upon Bozo for tieing as well as the person who shifted
• Xorxes is the last scum... With 3 minutes left, Jamie attempted to bus Xorxes... he figured there weren't enough active players to really put Xorxes in jeopardy plus Xorxes was off wagon and could move to save himself
• Brainbomb is the last scum... god i hope not, cause his D2 handling of Jamie came off as so towny and I have tried to fight that off that assumption ever since... I really don't think town!BB would have stayed on Ike... so if he was actually there and aware of EOD's time (which... despite his claims of never paying attention to the setup shit... is fairly likely) then he really could just be an excellent player... perhaps Jamie/BB saw the writing on the wall and planned the fake claim... perhaps BB is just actually that quick on picking up mistakes when he isn't acting dumb... of course he picked up on Jamie's mistake because he understood the setup and order of operations

Of these I think Xorxes seems the least likely, especially cause I just don't feel like Jamie plays that high of risk... but I haven't played enough games much less with Jamie to know how likely such a bold move is

@ Xorxes - I know you have given me a partial answer to this before.... but why did you move to Ike? did you actually plan to move your vote again? for instance if Brain had moved to me or Worcej would you have followed?

@ Brain - Similar question... why weren't you present at EOD and were you happy with ending the day on Ike?

[DrCJG]

I do wish I had been around D2 as when we lose I will feel like my absence that day was a major contributor... I understood why Xorxes OMGUS'd my vote on him D1, but I have never really understood why Xorxes (and perhaps others now) think my vote on Xorxes was so bad as town.

So a final attempt at resolving the questions about my D1 initial vote on Xorxes...

@Xorxes - Although there are reasons for town to avoid a position and try to blend in, I generally find hedging particularly on mechanics to be scum indicative. Town doesn't have as much information so it can be natural to be uncertain in reads... but when it comes to mechanics we are all on even footing.

Exactly, mechanics is the safest topic for scum to talk about, so how is having any opinion on mechanics, or having no strong opinion, alignment indicative? (unless it's arguing for a blatantly anti-town position, which is not what anyone is doing here).

Sorry, but I still don't follow your reasoning. It sounds like something you're making up to justify a vote.

While mechanics can be a safe haven for scum to seem active it is also an opportunity to see who is willing to state their own position with reasoning irregardless how it is perceived. IF you think mechanics is completely hogwash and unhelpful you should try and shut it down definitively to push the conversation to something you think is useful... but several players (Xorxes, Neph, thd, worcej) choose to state wishywashy responses such as... i don't think we will get enough support... this response implies the person thinks it may be a good idea for town... but, rather than pushing the idea and arguing why they think it is a good idea... they just let it die. I find this to be a scummy response. If you think mechanics discussion is worthless kill it, if you think the idea is bad say so, if you think the idea is good then definitely argue for it.... but just sliding in a response that appears in favor of the current majority (against) while appeasing anyone who is in favor seems scummy.

With that in mind: Neph, thd, Worcej, and Xorxes all posted similar gibberish regarding Bozo's propositions. They did not take aggressive negative postures like Brain/Jamie nor did they attempt to discuss it like I did. Instead, they each avoided an opinion or argument regarding it by stating they didn't think it would work because we wouldn't get everyone on board.

How exactly is that gibberish? It's pretty obvious that it's very hard to get everyone on board on those kinds of schemes.

Perhaps gibberish was not descriptive enough... they seemed like throwaway statements... fluff...filler...

I find this reasoning to be scummy and the fact that you choose to attack my vote on you rather than properly address his proposition with a position doesn't help your case.

Your vote and its justification is much more interesting than the mechanics question itself.

I am still not sure why you think my vote on you made so little since in a D1 situation... your D1 contribution was not very deep and did not seem to be very scumhuntery (something I attribute with you, perhaps unfairly)... when I saw your weak response to Bozo's propositions and the opportunity to make you a counterwagon I felt it was a great town vote... I had as strong of a scumread as I felt like I could get on D1, Damo was running away at that point and I felt a counterwagon was important to get better information, and I even thought to myself... if he is town making him a counter wagon will make it far less likely he gets NK'd.

In answer to your question, the scum motivation to hedge on a mechanics question is the same reason scum ever hedge to remain flexible while blending in...

What's the benefit for scum in remaining flexible on a mechanics question? What's towny about having a strong opinion on a matter that doesn't really help or hinder town much one way or another?

It always benefits scum to remain flexible on any issue, because it allows them to frame anything as towny/scummy as needed to fit the person they want to vote for... strong opinions and confidence are harder to backpeddle without explanation.

Perhaps I am just inexperienced.... but to me there is little to be gleaned D1 from what people say about others and how they read them... what you can try and do is see if someone has information they shouldn't have... and getting concrete rational from people as to why they believe a mechanic to be useful or not can help determine that.

While I am currently willing to vote for any of Neph, thd, Worcej, and Xorxes, I was already getting scum vibes from you. You're posts have rarely seemed directed towards stirring the pot or forcing positions that can be helpful for solving the game, yet I think you are reading closely (then again maybe your reading comprehension is just higher than Jamie and Brain) and of the few questions you have asked there has been very little or no follow up.

Yes, I am reading as closely as time permits, and yes, my reading comprehension is obviously higher than Jamiet's at least, not that that's something to brag about (I wouldn't fault brainbomb for reading comprehension). So?

So, I thought you were skimming the surface rather than asking probing questions and forcing people to state reasoned positions.

... my second vote on Xorxes was because I thought Damo seemed very likely town given no attempts (other than me) to build a counter wagon... I got played by Jamie who I thought was seeing the same thing.

[Squigs44]

Vote Count:
DrCJG (3): bozotheclown xorxes rdrivera2005
xorxes (1): brainbomb

DrCJG needs to cast a new vote

Currently DrCJG is set to be lynched

Just about 3 hours left before EoD

[DrCJG]

@ BB - I would vote Xorxes over me, but I am just not convinced he is more likely to be scum than Bozo or rdr

I do think if Xorxes is town, knowing it would significantly help our understanding of Jamie's motivations... but, unfortunately Jamie could have still been either getting away from Neph and scum!thd/rdr on Damo or trying to convince scum!bozo to help lynch Xorxes over Damo

Since we have two mislynches, I have tried to think about whether a specific person flipping town would be more likely to significantly help our understanding of jamie's motivation (and the game)...

I think it is safe to assume Worcej is Nk'd tonight...

The second NK is less certain and becomes a little WIFOM as there is someone I would expect if they are not the scum... but given the heat I have gotten I expect if I am not lynched I would be one of the final 3. I am not sure there is a flip that would ensure the other town in the final 3 believes I am town (and that I believe they are).

... and as I start to write more thoughts on this... I now question if such a discussion is more beneficial for scum than town.

[DrCJG]

Stepping into a meeting, be back soon... would appreciate a discussion before i am mislynched.

Unless yall have a good reason why scum!thd/rdr moves from Worcej to Damo D1... I have to think Bozo is morel likely the scum: ##VOTE Bozo

[rdrivera2005]

@ BB - I would vote Xorxes over me, but I am just not convinced he is more likely to be scum than Bozo or rdr

I do think if Xorxes is town, knowing it would significantly help our understanding of Jamie's motivations... but, unfortunately Jamie could have still been either getting away from Neph and scum!thd/rdr on Damo or trying to convince scum!bozo to help lynch Xorxes over Damo

Since we have two mislynches, I have tried to think about whether a specific person flipping town would be more likely to significantly help our understanding of jamie's motivation (and the game)...

I think it is safe to assume Worcej is Nk'd tonight...

The second NK is less certain and becomes a little WIFOM as there is someone I would expect if they are not the scum... but given the heat I have gotten I expect if I am not lynched I would be one of the final 3. I am not sure there is a flip that would ensure the other town in the final 3 believes I am town (and that I believe they are).

... and as I start to write more thoughts on this... I now question if such a discussion is more beneficial for scum than town.

Dr, I just dislike this post in many levels. First it´s wrong, we don´t have two myslynches, scum need two myslynches. We are 5-1, if we myslynch today it´s 3-1 tomorrow and it´s mylo. We can choose to not lynch to go to last day in lylo and with one less variable, but I am not sure if this is the best option and also because Mafia can choose to not kill. Second, this discussion is pointless and make me think we could be right lynching you.

[worcej]

##vote DrCJG

I honestly am swamped at this point and have to focus most my attention elsewhere. I don't think you're the scum, but cannot put the effort in for EOD to convince others.

[bozotheclown]

##vote DrCJG

I honestly am swamped at this point and have to focus most my attention elsewhere. I don't think you're the scum, but cannot put the effort in for EOD to convince others.

If you are right then we still get once more chance, but I think DrCJG is the scum.

[DrCJG]

@ BB - I would vote Xorxes over me, but I am just not convinced he is more likely to be scum than Bozo or rdr

I do think if Xorxes is town, knowing it would significantly help our understanding of Jamie's motivations... but, unfortunately Jamie could have still been either getting away from Neph and scum!thd/rdr on Damo or trying to convince scum!bozo to help lynch Xorxes over Damo

Since we have two mislynches, I have tried to think about whether a specific person flipping town would be more likely to significantly help our understanding of jamie's motivation (and the game)...

I think it is safe to assume Worcej is Nk'd tonight...

The second NK is less certain and becomes a little WIFOM as there is someone I would expect if they are not the scum... but given the heat I have gotten I expect if I am not lynched I would be one of the final 3. I am not sure there is a flip that would ensure the other town in the final 3 believes I am town (and that I believe they are).

... and as I start to write more thoughts on this... I now question if such a discussion is more beneficial for scum than town.

Dr, I just dislike this post in many levels. First it´s wrong, we don´t have two myslynches, scum need two myslynches. We are 5-1, if we myslynch today it´s 3-1 tomorrow and it´s mylo. We can choose to not lynch to go to last day in lylo and with one less variable, but I am not sure if this is the best option and also because Mafia can choose to not kill. Second, this discussion is pointless and make me think we could be right lynching you.

You’re right, I should have said 2 lynches. But, I think you know what I meant... furthermore I don’t think finding those kinds of mistakes should be indicative of me being scum... if anything, I think I am overly careful and polished as scum.

I think there is merit in thinking about the fact that we have 2 lynches to find the scum, but I don’t think we can communicate about such opinions because I think it gives scum too much information on how to play it.

Regardless, I encourage everyone to give a very detailed final opinion of why you think I am scum or not. Worcej you are technically exempt... but everyone else, I think it will be important when I flip. I would highly suggest waiting until the very end of day... but if you are town please give a detailed post to help others see why you decided to vote me or not

[rdrivera2005]

##vote DrCJG

I honestly am swamped at this point and have to focus most my attention elsewhere. I don't think you're the scum, but cannot put the effort in for EOD to convince others.

Sorry to hear that, because it's your last chance to help town (if we are wrong you are the NK).