Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

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xorxes
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#761 Post by xorxes » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:24 pm

yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:08 pm
damo666 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:15 pm
RagingIke297 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:13 pm
It was either BEX or DYZ, i picked wrong. I thought there was no way the info DYZ got could line up so perfectly like that....
It was a 50/50 for you. Hard luck. I thought they were scummier than us though.
Way scummier. It wasn't even close. BEX never did anything townie all game while bozo you and me went out of our way repeatedly to prove we were town. The fact that at the end bozo and you were having doubts about each other while BEX never doubted each other should also have been proof.
I think you're reading the game with your info and not from the POV of someone without your info. EP could not fake doubt of me because I had confessed to him I was town. He knew, from his info, that damo and you were scum. He never showed certainty between bozo and brain, and even tended to favor bozo. I never showed any confidence in brain or Espresso being town either. I will admit brain was pretty scummy, but mostly by being away, not by anything he did or say when he was here. So you thinking BEX never doubted each other is not based on what we actually did, just based on you already knowing we were scum. From Ike's perspective we were just a bit clueless. Bozo and especially damo being completely certain you were town, with no hard reason, was much more suspect from a neutral POV.
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yuuki
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#762 Post by yuuki » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:36 pm

Now for some general notes:

After my D1 lucky choice of two town I thought town would win for sure. Damo and bozo were also pretty much on the same page for most of the game so I thought there was no way they would vote outside of EP once we got him to confess to damo. For some reason at the end Bozo let himself be blinded by brainbomb 100% scum over EP 99.99% scum. And all of a sudden began to think EP is town for some very weird reason upon reread. To me, it was 100% sure that it was BEX based on behavior way before we got the necessary info to clear rd and Ike so it was fascinating that some others were failing to see how obviously manipulative xorxes in particular was being.

Regardless, for most of the game I think we were coasting as town while mafia vainly tried to convince us that it was DYZ over BEX. Then all of a sudden rdrivera (who I believe had identified BEX as scum team before getting his agenda) gets a change of agenda and Ike decides that he is going to listen to xorxes of all people who was the absolute scummiest from D2 on after he failed to confess to the town vote. I think Ike and brainbomb both failed to pay enough attention to the game in general and it sucked that the game deciding vote fell on Ike as he didn't show much interest in the game in the last phase (maybe frustration or maybe too busy setting up next mafia game).

Overall, I was very frustrated at how fellow townies fell for xorxes strategy to throw numbers at them and play a probabilities game rather than treat it as a mafia game. We all know town in general does slightly better voting randomly on mafia over based on info, but where is the fun in that and who wants to play a mafia game like that? Playing the odds makes this game no fun, but worst of all in a game where the odds are stacked against town from the setup it sucks the life out of the game.

During the first 24h of the voting phase I thought we would lose for sure as everybody piled on me, but during the next 24h I grew hopeful as the target switched from me to damo since I thought damo was the towniest player of all from beginning to end. I was hoping that Ike was just waiting to do a very late switch to try to cath scum divided between me and damo and thus win without having to go to the extra phase (which is why I asked if I could peg my vote to Ike, to make sure I ended voting on the right place when he switched), but alas it was not to be. I also hoped my peg the vote strategy would make Ike understand that I was town and therefore DZ were town too. I would love to know why this wasn't the case as it seemed to me that this is comething scum would never do in my position and especially not after I was no longer the target (which btw is kind of proven by the fact that no one in the scum team took that gambit). Also a bit confused as to why bozo didn't do the same knowing that we needed Ike vote after rivera hidden agenda.
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yuuki
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#763 Post by yuuki » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:38 pm

xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:24 pm
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:08 pm
damo666 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:15 pm


It was a 50/50 for you. Hard luck. I thought they were scummier than us though.
Way scummier. It wasn't even close. BEX never did anything townie all game while bozo you and me went out of our way repeatedly to prove we were town. The fact that at the end bozo and you were having doubts about each other while BEX never doubted each other should also have been proof.
I think you're reading the game with your info and not from the POV of someone without your info. EP could not fake doubt of me because I had confessed to him I was town. He knew, from his info, that damo and you were scum. He never showed certainty between bozo and brain, and even tended to favor bozo. I never showed any confidence in brain or Espresso being town either. I will admit brain was pretty scummy, but mostly by being away, not by anything he did or say when he was here. So you thinking BEX never doubted each other is not based on what we actually did, just based on you already knowing we were scum. From Ike's perspective we were just a bit clueless. Bozo and especially damo being completely certain you were town, with no hard reason, was much more suspect from a neutral POV.
This is just not true. You guys were unwavering in the last phase in your behavior and stance that you would only vote DYZ, while bozo and damo has plenty of doubts. Of course EP shouldn't have shown doubt of you, just as I was never doubting bozo and damo. But overall it was pretty damn obvious that D and Z had some doubts during voting phase while XB didn't.
You say you
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RagingIke297
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#764 Post by RagingIke297 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:49 pm

yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:02 pm
@Ike: how could you not recognize we were town after we pegged our votes to you is beyond my understanding
Becuase maybe you did that to fool me, I couldn't be sure what the motive was
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:14 pm
Last piece of venting

@Ike: why on earth wouldn't you try to tie the game at the end?
Xorxes was around, scum would have thrown the game to themselves
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yuuki
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#765 Post by yuuki » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 pm

RagingIke297 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:49 pm
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:02 pm
@Ike: how could you not recognize we were town after we pegged our votes to you is beyond my understanding
Becuase maybe you did that to fool me, I couldn't be sure what the motive was
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:14 pm
Last piece of venting

@Ike: why on earth wouldn't you try to tie the game at the end?
Xorxes was around, scum would have thrown the game to themselves
If you joined bozo on brainbomb it would had ended 4 - 4. And why would scum ever peg their votes to a townie?
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yuuki
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#766 Post by yuuki » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:52 pm

@damo: I think you played a great game and you read the situation very well. It was nice to have a fellow town on the same page even if you had no info on me.
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xorxes
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#767 Post by xorxes » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:54 pm

yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:38 pm
xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:24 pm
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:08 pm


Way scummier. It wasn't even close. BEX never did anything townie all game while bozo you and me went out of our way repeatedly to prove we were town. The fact that at the end bozo and you were having doubts about each other while BEX never doubted each other should also have been proof.
I think you're reading the game with your info and not from the POV of someone without your info. EP could not fake doubt of me because I had confessed to him I was town. He knew, from his info, that damo and you were scum. He never showed certainty between bozo and brain, and even tended to favor bozo. I never showed any confidence in brain or Espresso being town either. I will admit brain was pretty scummy, but mostly by being away, not by anything he did or say when he was here. So you thinking BEX never doubted each other is not based on what we actually did, just based on you already knowing we were scum. From Ike's perspective we were just a bit clueless. Bozo and especially damo being completely certain you were town, with no hard reason, was much more suspect from a neutral POV.
This is just not true. You guys were unwavering in the last phase in your behavior and stance that you would only vote DYZ, while bozo and damo has plenty of doubts. Of course EP shouldn't have shown doubt of you, just as I was never doubting bozo and damo. But overall it was pretty damn obvious that D and Z had some doubts during voting phase while XB didn't.
You say you
No, I never said I would vote for D or Z, I only voted for you and encouraged everyone to do the same. I only voted for damo in the last minute in resignation, since you were clearly the better choice even for Ike (it was illogical for Ike to vote damo over you, because if damo was scum, you were too, but if he was town, you still had a chance of being scum.)

EP never wanted to choose bozo or brain either, he only wanted to vote for you or damo, which were confirmed for him.

The reason we had less doubts than bozo and damo is that we had you as a common confirmed scum, while they didn't have anyone in common as confirmed scum.
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EspressoPatronum
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#768 Post by EspressoPatronum » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:55 pm

Yuuki - it's important to be graceful in victory and defeat. From a scum perspective, you played a very methodical and well-thought game. You also played quite aggressive, which I imagine may have been a contributing factor (of many others beyond your control, mind you) to the scum victory.

I'll be the first to admit the scum team caught some lucky breaks to get this result. I'll also be the first to echo xorxes' initial observation that 2/3 scum having the confession operation made the game nearly unwinnable from the start.

Piling your frustrations onto the rest of the town who had far less information than you is being pretty unfair to them.
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EspressoPatronum
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#769 Post by EspressoPatronum » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:57 pm

xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:54 pm
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:38 pm
xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:24 pm


I think you're reading the game with your info and not from the POV of someone without your info. EP could not fake doubt of me because I had confessed to him I was town. He knew, from his info, that damo and you were scum. He never showed certainty between bozo and brain, and even tended to favor bozo. I never showed any confidence in brain or Espresso being town either. I will admit brain was pretty scummy, but mostly by being away, not by anything he did or say when he was here. So you thinking BEX never doubted each other is not based on what we actually did, just based on you already knowing we were scum. From Ike's perspective we were just a bit clueless. Bozo and especially damo being completely certain you were town, with no hard reason, was much more suspect from a neutral POV.
This is just not true. You guys were unwavering in the last phase in your behavior and stance that you would only vote DYZ, while bozo and damo has plenty of doubts. Of course EP shouldn't have shown doubt of you, just as I was never doubting bozo and damo. But overall it was pretty damn obvious that D and Z had some doubts during voting phase while XB didn't.
You say you
No, I never said I would vote for D or Z, I only voted for you and encouraged everyone to do the same. I only voted for damo in the last minute in resignation, since you were clearly the better choice even for Ike (it was illogical for Ike to vote damo over you, because if damo was scum, you were too, but if he was town, you still had a chance of being scum.)

EP never wanted to choose bozo or brain either, he only wanted to vote for you or damo, which were confirmed for him.

The reason we had less doubts than bozo and damo is that we had you as a common confirmed scum, while they didn't have anyone in common as confirmed scum.
It also worked out that Y was a common scum possibility to every player.
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yuuki
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#770 Post by yuuki » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:00 pm

xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:54 pm
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:38 pm
xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:24 pm


I think you're reading the game with your info and not from the POV of someone without your info. EP could not fake doubt of me because I had confessed to him I was town. He knew, from his info, that damo and you were scum. He never showed certainty between bozo and brain, and even tended to favor bozo. I never showed any confidence in brain or Espresso being town either. I will admit brain was pretty scummy, but mostly by being away, not by anything he did or say when he was here. So you thinking BEX never doubted each other is not based on what we actually did, just based on you already knowing we were scum. From Ike's perspective we were just a bit clueless. Bozo and especially damo being completely certain you were town, with no hard reason, was much more suspect from a neutral POV.

This is just not true. You guys were unwavering in the last phase in your behavior and stance that you would only vote DYZ, while bozo and damo has plenty of doubts. Of course EP shouldn't have shown doubt of you, just as I was never doubting bozo and damo. But overall it was pretty damn obvious that D and Z had some doubts during voting phase while XB didn't.
You say you
No, I never said I would vote for D or Z, I only voted for you and encouraged everyone to do the same. I only voted for damo in the last minute in resignation, since you were clearly the better choice even for Ike (it was illogical for Ike to vote damo over you, because if damo was scum, you were too, but if he was town, you still had a chance of being scum.)

EP never wanted to choose bozo or brain either, he only wanted to vote for you or damo, which were confirmed for him.

The reason we had less doubts than bozo and damo is that we had you as a common confirmed scum, while they didn't have anyone in common as confirmed scum.
That's my point precisely. All of you never once considered voting for any of BEX. Whether some of you said you would vote for any of us three or just one is irrelevant. The main point is none of you were ever open to voting each other in the way D and Z were. At the very least brainbomb had to be.

Also, you are overlooking the point that despite damo and bozo having a confirmed scum from their point of view they were willing to vote outside of their 100% targets whereas you and EP were only willing to vote for your 100% targets. All of these are clear signs that you were scum and had no doubts unlike Z and D.
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xorxes
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#771 Post by xorxes » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:02 pm

yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 pm
And why would scum ever peg their votes to a townie?
That peg mechanism was a really horrible last minute change of rules.

Scum would peg their votes to a townie if the only way for them to avoid losing was to get that townie to vote with them.

So no, I don't think pegging your vote to Ike automatically cleared you. If it did, then the mechanism would not have been just horrible, but game ruining.

I have no idea what would have happened if for example I secretely pegged my vote to EP and EP secretely pegged it to me. I did not ask.
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yuuki
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#772 Post by yuuki » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:02 pm

EspressoPatronum wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:55 pm
Yuuki - it's important to be graceful in victory and defeat. From a scum perspective, you played a very methodical and well-thought game. You also played quite aggressive, which I imagine may have been a contributing factor (of many others beyond your control, mind you) to the scum victory.

I'll be the first to admit the scum team caught some lucky breaks to get this result. I'll also be the first to echo xorxes' initial observation that 2/3 scum having the confession operation made the game nearly unwinnable from the start.

Piling your frustrations onto the rest of the town who had far less information than you is being pretty unfair to them.
I think I'm rightfully frustrated that Ike did not even try during the last phase.
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yuuki
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#773 Post by yuuki » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:04 pm

xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:02 pm
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 pm
And why would scum ever peg their votes to a townie?
That peg mechanism was a really horrible last minute change of rules.

Scum would peg their votes to a townie if the only way for them to avoid losing was to get that townie to vote with them.

So no, I don't think pegging your vote to Ike automatically cleared you. If it did, then the mechanism would not have been just horrible, but game ruining.

I have no idea what would have happened if for example I secretely pegged my vote to EP and EP secretely pegged it to me. I did not ask.
Of course you wouldn't like the mechanism because you knew it 'almost' cleared me. And yes of course it didn't 100% clear me or it would had been an invalid ghame mechanic. But just the fact that I was willing to do that showed very strongly that I was town. Same as early on when I wanted to use my opeartion on myself, which was an undoubtedly town move.

People in mafia tend to forget occam's razor.
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RagingIke297
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#774 Post by RagingIke297 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:09 pm

yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:02 pm
EspressoPatronum wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:55 pm
Yuuki - it's important to be graceful in victory and defeat. From a scum perspective, you played a very methodical and well-thought game. You also played quite aggressive, which I imagine may have been a contributing factor (of many others beyond your control, mind you) to the scum victory.

I'll be the first to admit the scum team caught some lucky breaks to get this result. I'll also be the first to echo xorxes' initial observation that 2/3 scum having the confession operation made the game nearly unwinnable from the start.

Piling your frustrations onto the rest of the town who had far less information than you is being pretty unfair to them.
I think I'm rightfully frustrated that Ike did not even try during the last phase.
I did try, I sat down for about 2 hours and worked out that it was 100% either DYZ or BEX and that I had a 50/50 shot at each given all the SOLID info I was in possession of. I made a guess becuase I couldnt be sure, I guessed wrong
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yuuki
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#775 Post by yuuki » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:11 pm

Also, even if ike was convinced all of BEX were town, thanks to the pegged vote if he had switched late in the phase he would had forced a draw and earned an extra phase which could only be good for town as there would be more info.
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xorxes
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#776 Post by xorxes » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:12 pm

yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:00 pm
xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:54 pm

The reason we had less doubts than bozo and damo is that we had you as a common confirmed scum, while they didn't have anyone in common as confirmed scum.
That's my point precisely. All of you never once considered voting for any of BEX. Whether some of you said you would vote for any of us three or just one is irrelevant. The main point is none of you were ever open to voting each other in the way D and Z were. At the very least brainbomb had to be.
Why would we even consider voting a 50/50 when we had a 100%? Brainbomb had you as 100% and bozo as 99% (because of the unlikely DEY). Why would he consider anyone other than you or bozo?
Also, you are overlooking the point that despite damo and bozo having a confirmed scum from their point of view they were willing to vote outside of their 100% targets whereas you and EP were only willing to vote for your 100% targets. All of these are clear signs that you were scum and had no doubts unlike Z and D.
Our 100% target had enough chances to be lynched, there was no reason for us to compromise. Their 100% targets did not have enough support, someone had to compromise in order to get them lynched.

If the scum team really had been DYZ, what else would we have done other than consolidate on Y, that was the only one confirmed for all of us?
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yuuki
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#777 Post by yuuki » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:13 pm

RagingIke297 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:09 pm
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:02 pm
EspressoPatronum wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:55 pm
Yuuki - it's important to be graceful in victory and defeat. From a scum perspective, you played a very methodical and well-thought game. You also played quite aggressive, which I imagine may have been a contributing factor (of many others beyond your control, mind you) to the scum victory.

I'll be the first to admit the scum team caught some lucky breaks to get this result. I'll also be the first to echo xorxes' initial observation that 2/3 scum having the confession operation made the game nearly unwinnable from the start.

Piling your frustrations onto the rest of the town who had far less information than you is being pretty unfair to them.
I think I'm rightfully frustrated that Ike did not even try during the last phase.
I did try, I sat down for about 2 hours and worked out that it was 100% either DYZ or BEX and that I had a 50/50 shot at each given all the SOLID info I was in possession of. I made a guess becuase I couldnt be sure, I guessed wrong
Ok, apologies for thinking that then, but you were missing for most of the phase when you could had been asking questions and talking to us. Most of the time you came in and asked for summaries from other people. That to me felt like you weren't trying. Either way, the power to draw and get an extra phase was there. You didn't need to take a 50-50 shot.
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yuuki
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#778 Post by yuuki » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:15 pm

xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:12 pm
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:00 pm
xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:54 pm

The reason we had less doubts than bozo and damo is that we had you as a common confirmed scum, while they didn't have anyone in common as confirmed scum.
That's my point precisely. All of you never once considered voting for any of BEX. Whether some of you said you would vote for any of us three or just one is irrelevant. The main point is none of you were ever open to voting each other in the way D and Z were. At the very least brainbomb had to be.
Why would we even consider voting a 50/50 when we had a 100%? Brainbomb had you as 100% and bozo as 99% (because of the unlikely DEY). Why would he consider anyone other than you or bozo?
Also, you are overlooking the point that despite damo and bozo having a confirmed scum from their point of view they were willing to vote outside of their 100% targets whereas you and EP were only willing to vote for your 100% targets. All of these are clear signs that you were scum and had no doubts unlike Z and D.
Our 100% target had enough chances to be lynched, there was no reason for us to compromise. Their 100% targets did not have enough support, someone had to compromise in order to get them lynched.

If the scum team really had been DYZ, what else would we have done other than consolidate on Y, that was the only one confirmed for all of us?
If the situation would had been flipped and DYZ were scum, brainbomb would had had doubts. That's all. You know it and I know it. I'm not sure why you are trying to pretend that is not true.
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#779 Post by RagingIke297 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:20 pm

yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:13 pm
RagingIke297 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:09 pm
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:02 pm


I think I'm rightfully frustrated that Ike did not even try during the last phase.
I did try, I sat down for about 2 hours and worked out that it was 100% either DYZ or BEX and that I had a 50/50 shot at each given all the SOLID info I was in possession of. I made a guess becuase I couldnt be sure, I guessed wrong
Ok, apologies for thinking that then, but you were missing for most of the phase when you could had been asking questions and talking to us. Most of the time you came in and asked for summaries from other people. That to me felt like you weren't trying. Either way, the power to draw and get an extra phase was there. You didn't need to take a 50-50 shot.
How could i have drawn the vote? It was 7-1 on two townies and I only had 3 votes to move around by myself
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xorxes
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Re: Mini Mafia 1008 - Triple Agent

#780 Post by xorxes » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:21 pm

yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:04 pm
xorxes wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:02 pm
yuuki wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:51 pm
And why would scum ever peg their votes to a townie?
That peg mechanism was a really horrible last minute change of rules.

Scum would peg their votes to a townie if the only way for them to avoid losing was to get that townie to vote with them.

So no, I don't think pegging your vote to Ike automatically cleared you. If it did, then the mechanism would not have been just horrible, but game ruining.

I have no idea what would have happened if for example I secretely pegged my vote to EP and EP secretely pegged it to me. I did not ask.
Of course you wouldn't like the mechanism because you knew it 'almost' cleared me. And yes of course it didn't 100% clear me or it would had been an invalid ghame mechanic. But just the fact that I was willing to do that showed very strongly that I was town. Same as early on when I wanted to use my opeartion on myself, which was an undoubtedly town move.

People in mafia tend to forget occam's razor.
I didn't like the mechanism because it was a last minute thing and I wasn't sure what to do with it. I even considered pegging my vote to EP while staying on yuuki, but in the end decided it was not worth the risk. I was glad I didn't, when emc actually published what the pegs were when at first it seemed they would be kept secret (why on earth do them via PM if they were going to be outed?)

I don't agree that using your operation on yourself would have been a town move, a scum could just as easily use it on themselves to prove how towny they were if that was the case.

I think if the operations had all been used randomly, the info we got in the end would have been very similar to what we got by choosing who the operations were used on.

I'm curious to know if brainbomb really got a tip on rivera or just made it up. I'm surprised nobody accused him of making it up, since it was a pretty favorable choice for us.
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