[Classic] The Mountain Opening

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Enriador
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[Classic] The Mountain Opening

#1 Post by Enriador » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:40 pm

When Italy declared war on the Central Powers in 1915, the "Italian Front" of the Great War began. To the German-speaking empires of Germany and Austria-Hungary, this front became known as Gebirgskrieg - "the Mountain War", fought in the high reaches of the Alps.

Akin to history, the Mountain Opening involves Italian perfidy against a Central Power, helped by a Western ally. This is a joint Italo-French opening, requiring heavy diplomatic labor by both sides.

In Spring 1901, Italy's and France's diplomatic work should be directed on Russia. It's almost imperative that the Tsar jumps aboard for cooperation, as Russia can provide much-needed pressure on all of the Italian and French neighbors: Austria, Germany, England and Turkey. The Pope and the President get bonus points if they also manage to throw Prime Minister against Kaiser, or Archduke against Sultan. Sending Austria' Fleet Trieste away to Albania and keeping Germany's Army Munich from entering Burgundy (or holding) is just as relevant.

Once the Spring negotiations end, the Mountain Opening can come into action:

Link to map: https://imgur.com/a/y98wMzT

Italy
A Venice-Tyrolia
A Rome-Apulia
F Naples-Ionian Sea

France
F Brest-Mid-Atlantic Ocean
A Paris-Burgundy
A Marseilles S A Paris-Burgundy

As you can see, this opening mixes France's Maginot Opening with Italy's Tyrolian Lepanto. The intention is clear by now: a supported attack on German-held Munich.

By Fall 1901, France should attempt its best to convince both Germany and England to focus on Belgium (hopefully for a standoff), while Italy promises Germany no harm (perhaps showing it as an anti-Austrian ruse or defensive paranoia). Unless Germany attempts the incredibly unlikely A RUH S A KIE-MUN, Munich is almost guaranteed to fall in 1901 and resist even a 5-center Germany who took Belgium, Holland and Denmark - for a considerable time. If England moved to the Channel, they may receive the promise of non-intervention on Belgium or be outright confronted with F Mid-Atlantic Ocean-Brest. Ideally, Austria didn't dare move to Venice or the Adriatic Sea either and is gunning for the Balkans - giving Russia and Turkey considerable pause in case any of them dream of a Juggernaut. The Fall 1901 moves:

Link to map: https://imgur.com/a/mXdhuyt

Italy
A Tyrolia-Munich
A Apulia-Tunis
F Ionian Sea C A Apulia-Tunis

France
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean-Portugal
A Burgundy S A Tyrolia-Munich
A Marseilles-Spain

Belgium should be neutral, but an English fleet there is nothing to be scared of, especially if Russia is supportive of your plans and lays claim to Scandinavia (keeping the Prime Minister's builds busy). If Germany took Belgium not all is lost; Munich can still be held on if England jumps in, though an Italian retreat to Ruhr or Silesia can cause just as much headache to the Kaiser.

France has greatly weakened a major rival, while Italy gained a precious second build. The Mountain Opening gives both powers five units to play with in 1902 and the ability to create greater mischief against Germany (jointly) and nearby powers (individually). The builds should be:

Italy
A Venice
F Naples

France
F Brest
A Paris

Italy is now positioned to strike further into the continent thanks to its Venetian army, probably against Austria (followed by an Illyrian Opening of F Ionian Sea-Adriatic Sea). A traditional Lepanto can also be performed against Turkey, while Russian support may considerably help Italy's ambitions in the Balkans. France has plenty of possibilities as well, with F Brest-English Channel and F Portugal-Mid Atlantic Ocean being able to wreak havoc behind English lines, while its armies push into Ruhr with Italian support.

Given that France's likely paths for more centers goes through Munich, Italy may not have to hang on the center for eternity. Munich serves a temporary purpose - it gives Italy a second army to use against Austria in 1902, and once more Austrian or Turkish centers are taken Munich can be handled over to France without much fuss. Once again, Russian pressure on its neighbors' borders can make the difference between a swift campaign or a slower march across the board.

Italy & France can do much more together than just demilitarize a couple of provinces and exchange kind words. Sitting at the most peaceful part of the Main Stalemate Line, Pope and President can achieve much by making use of the Alpine paths around Switzerland in order to increase their earlier potential.

Next time you go to Burgundy or Tyrolia remember the fate of the German and Austro-Hungarian empires, and give the Franco-Italian partnership a chance!

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#2 Post by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:08 am

I’m not sure that the mark in this theory is who you think it is. There’s a much better play out of a situation where France supports Italy to Munich.

Who do you think gets destroyed first?

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#3 Post by Enriador » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:52 am

ssorenn wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:08 am
I’m not sure that the mark in this theory is who you think it is. There’s a much better play out of a situation where France supports Italy to Munich.

Who do you think gets destroyed first?
Is there a better situation where France supports Italy to Munich? My good man, what are you waiting for: elaborate! I am very curious to hear it.

I can't possibly answer (can anyone?) "who gets destroyed first" without seeing a board's context, so I pass that on. :-D

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#4 Post by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:37 am

To me, Italy’s biggest detriment is having a single fleet. We all know she wants to be a sea fairing country.(yes there are certain games where it’s an army centric nation) but in general, the seas is where’s she’s at most home.

That said, 90% of the time Italy’s build assuming she gets one from Tunis , is a fleet. Possibly running traditional lepanto. It’s in both Italy’s and Frances best interest most of the time to DMZ the southwest west corner. It allows both to expand without too much worry on half their flanks. This is usually good till maybe mid game. Like all games, each is different, but there’s very little commonality for France and Italy especially in the early and mid game.

If I’m Italy , and i find a willing France to offer Munich to me, I’m immediately trying to put E/G in alliance. Why, what Italy lacks with one fleet build is the naval superiority to attack France. If France does what you suggest, he is resigned to his natural builds out of Iberia and will have to use one as an army to help support the maginoux line. Italy builds 2 fleets moving west with his third from Tunis So at best France wil; have 2 fleets to Italy’s three. He’s doomed in ibreria and that doesn’t account for the English and probably German pilling on.

Also, if France is not careful, aNd moves burgundy to Ruhr (Italy’s suggestion), when German retakes Munich , Munich might retreat to burgundy and the route is on.

All in all, i/F can be good allys by staying away from each other, but common ground is not what i see for the two countries in the early.

Btw, i do have a 2 way draw to my credit with F/I.

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#5 Post by Claesar » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:36 am

I've always considered it folly as Italy to accept French support into Munich, mostly because you get in the way of France himself very soon. It's nice to see you're addressing that concern here. I should try this soon, thanks!

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#6 Post by Enriador » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:03 pm

@ssorenn, thanks for your feedback.
It’s in both Italy’s and Frances best interest most of the time to DMZ the southwest west corner. It allows both to expand without too much worry on half their flanks
It's this very logic that makes the Mountain Opening reasonable - F/I's inherent ability to stand apart from each other makes early cooperation on Munich a breeze.
If I’m Italy , and i find a willing France to offer Munich to me, I’m immediately trying to put E/G in alliance.
All openings depend on context. The Mountain Opening is (obviously, I hope) best used in the event of England and Germany being already hostile to each other, but what if they are allied? Italy might have Balkan concerns (like an A/T or Juggernaut) to deal with and may not be able to spare units to join the attack on France.

If you can help delay the fall of France a little bit (and thus the closing of Marseilles, Tyrolia and Mid-Atlantic Ocean by E/G) *and* grab an extra unit to use in the East, why not try the opening?
If France does what you suggest, he is resigned to his natural builds out of Iberia and will have to use one as an army to help support the maginoux line.
at best France wil; have 2 fleets to Italy’s three.
Not necessarily. France can always stab Italy (highly likely if allied with England!) and build Fleet Marseilles(-Gulf of Lyon) and Fleet Brest(-Mid-Atlantic) just as well. A SPA-GAS (in Spring 1902) protects all French home centers, helps hold Burgundy and enables F POR-SPA sc.

We are talking about three French fleets on WES by Fall 1902. Perfectly feasible.
Italy builds 2 fleets moving west with his third from Tunis
You are wrong there: Italy wouldn't have Fleet Tunis. As shown in both text and image, Italy convoys an army to Tunis. The intention is precisely to steer Italy towards Austria or Turkey, the price to be paid for support into Munich.

If Italy moves F ION-TUN anyway, France will have their builds ready to punish Italian perfidy - not exactly the best stab from Italy's point-of-view, Italy needs quick gains rather than a stalemate in the MSL. Also, if I were Italy and wanted to stab France from Munich, I would try something akin to the Italian Oktoberfest Opening - far more deadly.

Another argument: Italy usually has very few geopolitical reasons to move against France. It's more naturally inclined to the Balkans, with a build of Army Venice and Fleet Naples being more useful against Austria/Turkey than otherwise.

Italy still could try A VEN-PIE and F NAP-TYN, but with an army in Tunis and a French unit in Gascony and another in Mid-Atlantic that would be a slog.
He’s doomed in ibreria and that doesn’t account for the English and probably German pilling on.
But that is only true in your (possible, I admit) doomsday scenario. What if Austria is hostile? What if a Juggernaut is in motion? What if England is friendly to France? What if Russia puts pressure on PRU/SIL/BAL/NWY? In all these scenarios (and a few more) the Mountain Opening can handle both powers (France and Italy) more benefits than drawbacks.
Also, if France is not careful, aNd moves burgundy to Ruhr (Italy’s suggestion), when German retakes Munich , Munich might retreat to burgundy and the route is on.
A reasonable fear, but I don't find that likely. My suggested builds for France included Army Paris. Where do you think A Paris will move to? Burgundy of course (with A SPA-GAS coming just behind). If the Italian army is dislodged it will not be able to retreat there - Silesia or Tyrolia would be more profitable.
i/F can be good allys by staying away from each other, but common ground is not what i see for the two countries in the early.
In Diplomacy, common ground can be reached for any combination of two countries if the context is right. This is very much true for France & Italy for the reasons stated in the OP: a weakened Germany, easier access to Ruhr, extra Italian unit, etc.

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#7 Post by Enriador » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:17 pm

Claesar wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:36 am
I've always considered it folly as Italy to accept French support into Munich, mostly because you get in the way of France himself very soon. It's nice to see you're addressing that concern here. I should try this soon, thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it! Probably not an opening for most games, but it may have its niche. Army Tyrolia + Fleet Ionian Sea is useful in any case, should things go south.

This is the key thing: Italy cannot hold on Munich for very long. It's actually most commonly taken as the 18th Italian center or somewhere along the endgame. Seeing A BUR S A TYR-MUN as a quick SC grab is for the best - France will want it anyway, sooner or later.

So use your build from Munich with care!

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#8 Post by David E. Cohen » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:22 pm

"Bonus points" for E/G or A/T hostilities? For this opening to have a chance at long term success, at least one of those conditions is absolutely necessary. If the four are allied, or even moderately friendly for a significant period, it is four on three and the F/I/R is going to be defeated.

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#9 Post by ziran » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:48 pm

is it really an "extra army" if your original army is defending (but probably losing) a center against a power that is normally not hostile to you?
1

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#10 Post by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:30 pm

Anyone can go what if. My comments were meant to be in general. There are always exceptions. As far as fleet Tunis, if i know I’m getting Munich I’m not convoying to Tunis. I’m moving army apulia to Venice.

I’m also not saying your scenario won’t work, although unlikely. I’m saying -90% of the time, if France gives Italy Munich, France signed his own death warrant

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#11 Post by Claesar » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:04 pm

ssorenn wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:30 pm
Anyone can go what if. My comments were meant to be in general. There are always exceptions. As far as fleet Tunis, if i know I’m getting Munich I’m not convoying to Tunis. I’m moving army apulia to Venice.

I’m also not saying your scenario won’t work, although unlikely. I’m saying -90% of the time, if France gives Italy Munich, France signed his own death warrant
So for every game that I post here in which France did just fine after supporting Italy into Germany, you will post 9 in which they didn't? ;)
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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#12 Post by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:04 pm

No matter the scenario, the 3/2 fleets advantage is too hard to pass up. It does not require EG to ally either. EF could have an initial strong relationship but any solid player will see what’s coming and be opportunistic.

England’s main worry will naturally be, Italy to continue to move north. It would not be in Italy’s best Interest to continue the fight against England. Stretched way to far too early. Actually, Italy should return to help the Austrian if he can. Rhis brings up the possibility of seeing a Jugg. Doesn’t change the strategy. Italy will have 2-3 of the French sc by 03-04. Those units can be dedicated to stop the jugg(or at the very least prolong the Austrian death) until Italy can put enough resources to stop the tide.

Italy while the smallest country, have the best resources for defense.

Here’s where no ones talked about yet. It’s ones ability to rally support. Every player has different diplomatic skills. I’m quite confident in my ability to make people see what i need them to see.

The only reason i see this not working is if Austria decides to attack Italy early. Hmm, how often do we see that.

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#13 Post by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:06 pm

Claesar wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:04 pm
ssorenn wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:30 pm
Anyone can go what if. My comments were meant to be in general. There are always exceptions. As far as fleet Tunis, if i know I’m getting Munich I’m not convoying to Tunis. I’m moving army apulia to Venice.

I’m also not saying your scenario won’t work, although unlikely. I’m saying -90% of the time, if France gives Italy Munich, France signed his own death warrant
So for every game that I post here in which France did just fine after supporting Italy into Germany, you will post 9 in which they didn't? ;)
1 how well did Italy do?
2. If you don’t know how to leverage your advantages here, you will not succeed in the long term.

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#14 Post by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:33 pm

ssorenn wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:04 pm
No matter the scenario, the 3/2 fleets advantage is too hard to pass up. It does not require EG to ally either. EF could have an initial strong relationship but any solid player will see what’s coming and be opportunistic.

England’s main worry will naturally be, Italy to continue to move north. It would not be in Italy’s best Interest to continue the fight against England. Stretched way to far too early. Actually, Italy should return to help the Austrian if he can. Rhis brings up the possibility of seeing a Jugg. Doesn’t change the strategy. Italy will have 2-3 of the French sc by 03-04. Those units can be dedicated to stop the jugg(or at the very least prolong the Austrian death) until Italy can put enough resources to stop the tide.

Italy while the smallest country, have the best resources for defense.

Here’s where no ones talked about yet. It’s ones ability to rally support. Every player has different diplomatic skills. I’m quite confident in my ability to make people see what i need them to see.

The only reason i see this not working is if Austria decides to attack Italy early. Hmm, how often do we see that.
I guess there one alliance that may make me think twice. A/T. That allows the Turk to get fleets early into med, if run correctly. Also, you don’t see many of those except in higher skill level games. But then again, that alliance will not have shown its head in 01. So point is moot

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#15 Post by Enriador » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:27 pm

David E. Cohen wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:22 pm
"Bonus points" for E/G or A/T hostilities? For this opening to have a chance at long term success, at least one of those conditions is absolutely necessary. If the four are allied, or even moderately friendly for a significant period, it is four on three and the F/I/R is going to be defeated.
I slightly disagree about them (E v G, A v T) being hostile as "absolutely necessary". An anti-Russian, northern-focused England (doing an Eastern Push) will neither hinder France nor rush in Germany's help. Even if E/G are revealed as partners (assuming French ignorance of the fact), what can be better than making Germany lose Munich?

The opening is also useful in the case where Austria and Turkey are revealed as allies in Spring 1901. If Italy has to go save Russia's ass - and normally it can afford to do so - the extra build from Munich is more than useful to bog down Austria while also having fleet power enough to block Turkey. Context is king!

I believe, however, that E/G being allied in addition to A/T also being allied may be very troublesome indeed, and thankfully the opening is very versatile and can be adapted for that situation in Fall 1901:

France
F MID can guard BRE
A BUR protects the French flank and can interfere with BEL
A MAR can grab SPA and ensure a build

Italy
A TYR can retake a lost VEN or play with Austria over VIE/TRI
A APU can retake a lost VEN or convoy to TUN/ALB/GRE
F ION can take TUN or convoy A APU somewhere else

Ideally, the opening shines best if only one (or none!) of these couples are together. If A/T allied, a 5-center Italy is relevant. If E/G allied, losing Burgundy *and* Munich is a solid blow to Saxons' plans.

Finally, if E/G/T/A all engage in a quadruple alliance, F/I/R are screwed up pretty badly anyway. I suppose one should pay a lot of attention to their Spring 1901 negotiations.
is it really an "extra army" if your original army is defending (but probably losing) a center against a power that is normally not hostile to you?
If you can order Build A Venice in Fall Adjustments 1901, then surely it is! :-D

In Spring 1902:

A VEN-TRI
F NAP-ION
F ION-ADR
A TUN H
A MUN S A BUR-RUH

In Fall 1902:

A VEN S A TUN-TRI
F ADR C A TUN-TRI
F ION C A TUN-TRI
A TUN-TRI
A MUN/SIL/TYR/BOH (deals with Germany/Austria whatsoever)

The Illyrian Opening can involve a convoy to Albania as well, in several different forms. It's the quickest way to cope with the (possible, but far from guaranteed!) loss of Munich. Damn, if Russia went well fresh reinforcements may be arriving from Warsaw.

Holding Munich, in any case, is not of essence. It's a quick grab against a very busy power that can hardly afford to launch a punitive expedition against Italy for a good while, as they wrestle with invaders from both west and east.

The major target, remember, is Austria. Just like the Mountain War.
As far as fleet Tunis, if i know I’m getting Munich I’m not convoying to Tunis. I’m moving army apulia to Venice.
There *is* opportunity for an Italian stab of France here, and I am glad you pointed it out. Fortunately, every Diplomacy alliance (from the Lepanto to the Sealion) suffers from this risk (a stabbing "partner") so hopefully the opening's usefulness stands beyond this weakness. Besides, France can do the following moves after seeing Italy's stab and building two fleets:

F BRE-MID
F MAR-GOL
F POR-SPA sc
A SPA-GAS
A BUR (deals with Munich whatsoever)

Three fleets against three fleets. Good luck attacking France now - if Austria or Turkey guns for you (which they do ~2/3 of the time), you will surely need it!
I’m saying -90% of the time, if France gives Italy Munich, France signed his own death warrant
There is wisdom in your words. If France pulls this off, the President must give very serious consideration in order to determine the opening's potential *and* dangers, which can be many.

Disclaimer: the Mountain Opening is not a new Southern Hedgehog or Danish Blitzkrieg or Lepanto. It's not supposed to be used except in a very specific set of circumnstances.
No matter the scenario, the 3/2 fleets advantage is too hard to pass up
I believe you are overrating this apparent Italian advantage. Twice I proposed how France can take steps to provide a powerful naval defence for 1902, and it shows a French fleet next to WES and TYN with two others also adjacent to WES, and an army in Gascony ready to close the Piedmontese bottleneck from A VEN-PIE. The Mountain Opening fully accounts for a possible French recovery from an Italian stab, but if it fails somewhere I would be most grateful if you explained where it does.
Italy will have 2-3 of the French sc by 03-04. Those units can be dedicated to stop the jugg(or at the very least prolong the Austrian death) until Italy can put enough resources to stop the tide.
Hmm, I will go slightly off-topic here: even with MAR & SPA, Italy would have much more trouble holding down a Juggernaut than you suggest. I mean, Italy has trouble holding a Juggernaut with armies already in the east (from taking any of TRI/VIE/BUD/SER/GRE when going after Austria at start) and normally is wasted away by the game's most explosive alliance. How Italian units bogged down in Iberia can be possibly more useful in this case?

And of course, I dispute Italy would have such a massive advantage over France in first place... unless E/I/G all allied against France, but then no opening can ever save the poor President.
The only reason i see this not working is if Austria decides to attack Italy early.
There are more similar cases actually: a Late Western Triple, a RAT Triple, a Juggernaut facing down an Austria that moved 1901's F TRI-VEN and didn't take GRE), etc. The first two are rare, but the third one is all too common - remember the Juggernaut is the East's most common alliance, and the Southern Hedgehog is Austria's second most popular opening.
Here’s where no ones talked about yet. It’s ones ability to rally support. Every player has different diplomatic skills. I’m quite confident in my ability to make people see what i need them to see.
I once saw a diplomat (on Droidippy, that house of madmen) who managed to give England three goddamn builds in 1901 (France's F BRE C A WAL-BEL, England's F NTH-DEN, F NRG-NWY). With enough of a silver tongue anything is possible, right? :razz:
I guess there one alliance that may make me think twice. A/T. That allows the Turk to get fleets early into med, if run correctly. Also, you don’t see many of those except in higher skill level games. But then again, that alliance will not have shown its head in 01. So point is moot
A/T can certainly be caught by the eye of the expert diplomat - or at the very least suspected. Normally it goes like this:

Austria
A VIE-GAL-GAL/RUM
F TRI-ALB-GRE/F TRI-TRI-ALB
A BUD-SER-(deals with Greece and Rumania whatsoever)

Turkey
A CON-BUL-RUM
F ANK-BLA-BLA/F ANK-BLA-(deals with Sevastopol and Rumania whatsoever)
A SMY-ARM

When Austria races for Galicia/Rumania and Turkey plays to Armenia and Black Sea, while no conflict arises in Greece, only a sleepy player would fail to realize the possibility of A/T allying. And in this case, moving so strongly against France would be a very risky move.

Extra note: Italy's A Munich, as said several times, is unlikely to exist for long. The loss of Munich must be replaced by another supply center as soon as possible, and an Italian stab on France cannot result in another supply center being won.

At best, a stabbing Italy will take GOL/WES and get stuck in the Main Stalemate Line, all thanks to F POR-MID (guarding SPA from F TUN-WES) and A SPA-GAS (guarding Marseilles from A VEN-PIE). Even if England and Germany come down on France in Spring, Italy itself cannot force itself to any French home center and none of the Iberian centers in 1902.

Italy may be forced to disband an unit, cut short its invasion, and see itself away from its natural targets in the Balkans and near a somewhat angry France. Is risking such a terrible situation worth more than simply attacking sweet & nearby Austria, lying just beyond Venice?

Can't wait to hear your thoughts! Italy is my favorite power and discussing it is a delight.

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#16 Post by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:07 pm

“ I believe you are overrating this apparent Italian advantage. Twice I proposed how France can take steps to provide a powerful naval defence for 1902, and it shows a French fleet next to WES and TYN with two others also adjacent to WES, and an army in Gascony ready to close the Piedmontese bottleneck from A VEN-PIE. The Mountain Opening fully accounts for a possible French recovery from an Italian stab, but if it fails somewhere I would be most grateful if you explained where it does.”

Where do s this French fleet coming from??? Italy will demand that no fleet build in Marseilles. In spring 02 Italy has west med Tyrr and in fall has GoL. Army Venice is moving to piedmont and diplomacy beteen Italy and Germany needs to be such that Italy apologized and gives back Munich. It’s inconsequential what happens to army Munich as italy offers up French Sc for his transgressions. Sometimes you need to see the bigger picture. Less skilled players don’t and can’t forgive. That’s their learning curve

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#17 Post by Enriador » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:34 pm

Where do s this French fleet coming from???
F BRE, F MAR, F POR. F POR was the starting fleet, F BRE and F MAR are supplied from Spain and Portugal. I posted the sequence of moves where the French fleets move to the key defensive positions of MID, GOL and SPA sc in the post just above yours.
Italy will demand that no fleet build in Marseilles
After stabbing France and moving F ION-TUN and A APU-VEN (threatening WES and MAR in 1902)? :eyeroll:

I doubt Italy would be in a moral position to do that after literally choosing to throw the Mountain Opening irreversibly away.
Army Venice is moving to piedmont
Piedmont is a bottleneck. A VEN-PIE can be powerful when France does not suspect of Italian perfidy, but Italy's choice of Fall moves *and* builds (F ROM as you suggest) wouldn't exactly get France by surprise.
diplomacy beteen Italy and Germany needs to be such that Italy apologized and gives back Munich
Indeed - good luck with that. While Germany would likely focus on the bigger threat - France - rather than Italy, don't expect the Kaiser to suddenly turn friends with the power that took its home center and halted their early game ambitions. Germany's own diplomatic focus would be directed on bringing Austria on-board against future Italian plans rather than blindly trust the Pope once again. Remember Austria & Germany both dislike Italy as soon as Spring 1901, thanks to A VEN-TYR.

It may happen, but it's far from easy. Personally, if you want a pro-German anti-French opening, avoid the Mountain Opening. I recommend Dean's opening (http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resour ... attack.htm) if you want to pull that off.
It’s inconsequential what happens to army Munich as italy offers up French Sc for his transgressions.
And what leverage does Italy have over the French centers? From the German point of view, Italy is an opportunist who sought to profit off Germany's strategy, with no units in Piedmont (or anywhere) capable of giving decisive support to German units to recope with the 1901 loss of Munich. You run the risk of the Kaiser calling your apology and requirement of cooperation to be bull's shit.

Also, what happens to A Munich is very consequential for Italy, as they would be very likely to disband an unit if it follows that plan of yours.

An Italian stab on France, steering from the Mountain Opening, is far too risky - Italian units are in the wrong places; Italy has no diplomatic coin to offer to any other power (no fleet in ION, no army in PIE, no army in TYR etc) other than "Hey Germany I am so sorry I stabbed you" and France can see the Italian attack coming a mile away and worse, prepare for that.
Sometimes you need to see the bigger picture. Less skilled players don’t and can’t forgive.
I agree, but in case it wasn't obvious here's another Disclaimer: the Mountain Opening is not designed for begginers. It's an advanced opening supposed to be used in special occasions, like the Centrifuge or the Slingshot Juggernaut.

ssorenn
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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#18 Post by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:47 pm

Great, you’ve stopped the Italian advance, England and Germany gobble you u- your missing the point

Enriador
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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#19 Post by Enriador » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:02 pm

ssorenn wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:47 pm
Great, you’ve stopped the Italian advance, England and Germany gobble you u- your missing the point
I think you are missing the point buddy, might be mutual miscommunication. :?

You just assumed, for some reason, that Italy, England and Germany are all hostile to France. If that's the context you propose, fine, but then no opening or set of moves will save France's ass in any possible case - their elimination is basically assured!

I don't see how such perspective contributes to the opening's discussion, as F vs G/E/I triple alliance is very rare. In the Mountain Opening France didn't exactly explode the board with a weird opening like F BRE-PIC, A MAR-PIE, A PAR-BRE, but made the strong Maginot Opening (F POR, A SPA, A BUR), widely recognized as a very powerful opening, while a neighboring power lost a home center to a third power.

I am confused about why you assume everyone would want French blood. Does the same thing happen (in your opinion) if Italy takes Munich without any support?

An Italian army in Munich is not going to throw England against France - might as well be the opposite as England seeks gains in Holland and Denmark, or Norway and St. Petersburg. After all, Germany is in trouble - England is as likely to let the Kaiser drown as they are to help him.

An Italian stab on France is not easily done and can be repelled by France without any flamboyant tactics required, I hope I explained that properly.

What are we discussing here exactly? What do you propose?

ssorenn
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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

#20 Post by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:24 pm

Umm no. Italy becomes hostile to France and the German is sure going to be hostile(France just aupported Italy to Munich) and England will become opportunistic.

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