Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

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GarlMargs
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Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#1 Post by GarlMargs » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:59 pm

I'm a complete newbie at Modern, but enjoy it a lot and noticed the lack of posts about it in the strategy section. Bearing this in mind, I'd like to start a discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of various alliance in Modern.

A few questions to start

- What are some of the strongest alliances in your opinion? Why?

- What are some alliances that seem tricky to pull off or prone to fall apart quickly, and why?

- Does your approach to negotiation and choosing an ally in Modern differ from standard diplomacy? How?
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ziran
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Re: Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#2 Post by ziran » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:54 am

I don't have any knowledge on the subject but i would also like to learn. I doubt it has been analysed half as thoroughly.

GarlMargs
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Re: Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#3 Post by GarlMargs » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:11 pm

Just an update from a couple modern games I've been playing and spectating recently.

Germany/Italy seems to be a strong, fairly natural alliance. Italy and Germany aren't as isolated from each other as in Standard, which can create conflict over Switz and Austria. That said, their border looks pretty nice and clean and both have enough room to expand and enemies to fight that attacking each other is a pretty unattractive option. I could see something like an Italy/Germany/Russia triple working out very well.

A Slavic Triple (P/R/U) seems much more workable than R/A/T would be in Standard, perhaps owing to the fact there's more space on the board. Russia takes Scandinavia and Turkey (with allied help), Ukraine gets most ornate Balkans and take Italy's place as a Mediterranean power and Poland can overrun Germany. The two main problems are 1.) Russia kinda gets shafted unless the other allies are diligent about helping them and 2.) Bielorussia has to be Polish to even have a chance of convincing Poland to move west.

Out of all the alliances I've seen France/Spain and Egypt/Turkey seem the least profitable. Spain is just a constant threat to France's backside and Egypt really can't hope to outpace Turkey in terms of builds and will probably end up getting overwhelmed once Turkey's north is secure and the Balkans are yellow.

Share your observations plz. :)
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Tom Bombadil
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Re: Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#4 Post by Tom Bombadil » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:21 pm

I think I've only played one modern game, but to me the biggest difference is the build anywhere mechanic. That truly leads to the ability to make any alliance work as its much easier to avoid bottlenecks.
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dargorygel
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Re: Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#5 Post by dargorygel » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:34 pm

England/Spain is a strong alliance, too. It has the advantage of the West Safe Wall... and with the Gibralter situation, the two nations have a chance to test each other right away, and see if trust can work. A natural enemy (France) let's them start strong.

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Re: Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#6 Post by dargorygel » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:36 pm

I also agree with Tom. The "build anywhere" makes this game an entirely different kettle of fish. The front line is never far from a build. A single unit/SC becomes a threat, or a rescue.

Efraim.pol@hotmail.com
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Re: Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#7 Post by Efraim.pol@hotmail.com » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:02 pm

darorygel in the other hand spain can also want to avoid being soroundered by the UK if france is councered.
oh and an allience between egypt and italy is unlikely because tunisia

GarlMargs
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Re: Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#8 Post by GarlMargs » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:21 pm

Efraim.pol@hotmail.com wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:02 pm
darorygel in the other hand spain can also want to avoid being soroundered by the UK if france is councered.
oh and an allience between egypt and italy is unlikely because tunisia
I disagree somewhat. From what I've seen, Italy and Egypt have much to gain by working together or at least staying on friendly terms. If I'm Egypt, I'd be happy to buy off Italy with Tunisia. If you can get Italy to focus on the west, you could keep an alliance going for quite some time.
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GarlMargs
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Re: Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#9 Post by GarlMargs » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:11 pm

Another observation from the eastern side of the border (I never draw western powers in Modern).

Ukraine seems like the hot commodity among the three Slavs. A Russia/Ukraine alliance is great, a Poland/Ukraine alliance makes a lot of sense too. A Poland/Russia alliance isn't so attractive. Biel is probably going to be a point of tension, as will Scandinavia, eventually. The geography doesn't work out as well either. What centers can Poland realistically expect to gain (and hold) by fighting with Russia against Ukraine? Anything Poland gains in that area will be directly in the path of Russian expansion.

I'm sure P/R can work if Poland and Russia really hit it off...or Ukraine is an insufferable turd. As I said in a post above, even a Slavic Triple is doable. But conventional wisdom would suggest that Poland and Russia are going to compete for Ukrainian friendship and that Ukraine will end up deciding who's the odd man out.

Anyone played or witnessed a strong P/R?

Ultra Instinct Cubone
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Re: Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#10 Post by Ultra Instinct Cubone » Wed May 09, 2018 4:50 am

I've witnessed a strong Polish/Russian alliance before. I was Britain and eventually I was lucky enough to join in. We were a very strong trio.

Omphalos
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Re: Let's discuss alliances in the Modern Variant.

#11 Post by Omphalos » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:56 am

The slavic trio seems like it would be a dominant alliance but it is impracticable because it requires Russia to loop around to the north and east since both Poland and Ukraine are in its way, and unstable because of the proximity of SCs in the Bielorussia area which makes backstabbing a constantly easy temptation. So one of the three must lose out. There are tricky expansion issues with all combinations here. Russia-Poland doesn't really benefit Poland much (aside from not being immediately attacked by Russia) since Russia will likely gain most if not all of Ukraine and after be tempted to backstab Poland, or if Poland expands much into Ukraine it blocks Russia's expansion almost as much as the triple alliance. With Ukraine-Russia pretty much any expansion by Ukraine into Poland also bottlenecks Russia's westward movement as much as the triple alliance, which destabilizes the alliance. Poland- Ukraine is my preference (unless i'm playing Russia of course ;)) as, with the possible exception of the division of Russia, they are not in each others way.

I disagree that Britain and France are natural enemies. To the contrary, it is mutually difficult for them to attack each other which makes them natural allies. The alliance tends to be unequal however, with Britain being the junior partner. Spain-Britain is made difficult by Gibraltar which almost gaurantees conflict. If Britain really wants a Spanish alliance the best thing to do is cede any claim to Gibraltar or any idea of Mediterranean expansion.

A surprisingly dominant alliance I put together in one game was Spain-Italy-Egypt. We steamrolled the map, never having a dangerous challenge. The biggest danger was some ongoing paranoid nervousness which threatened to break the alliance, but thankfully never did. I think the strength of this alliance was a result of the southern wall, a Mediterranean peace meaning we could all build mainly armies instead of fleets (Spain obviously built a few more fleets though), and the starting positions are such that you can support each others efforts while also staying out of each others ways.

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