If you could change one thing...

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frankiethefrank
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If you could change one thing...

#1 Post by frankiethefrank » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:48 am

Hey, I imagine this has been asked plenty of times as it's a fairly obvious question, but I can't see it anywhere on the forums so forgive me asking again.

I'm just curious - if you could change ONE thing on the map, which you think could make it a better game; what would it be?

Would you make it possible to cross Spain to North Africa by land after all?

Would you allow convoying across Denmark?

Should Ireland be considered a neutral Supply Centre?

Or maybe you'd invent a whole new territory and slot it in somewhere, to sabotage one of the stalemate lines?

...Or perhaps, of course, you think the map entirely perfect as it is - delicately balanced and the acme of design?

Interested in everyone's views!
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David E. Cohen
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#2 Post by David E. Cohen » Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:03 am

It would take more than one change to "fix" the Standard map.
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Claesar
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#3 Post by Claesar » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:32 pm

The standard map is perfect. If I had to choose anything, it would be between NAf and Spain being connected (as you suggested) and Bal-Ska being connected. Neither would invalidate the stalemate line. I've tried both moves in Face to Face but the GM ruled against me.
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captainmeme
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#4 Post by captainmeme » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:48 pm

Neutral army in Spain could be an interesting one.
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jasnah
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#5 Post by jasnah » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:52 pm

MAO should connect to East Med.

Basis in real geography is none, but I think it would fix a number of the balance problems I most commonly deal with.

I wouldn't actually enact this change or any of the others though; there's lots of diplomatic gameplay value generated by the need to play around a deeply dysfunctional map. Isn't that what makes Diplomacy Diplomacy?
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teccles
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#6 Post by teccles » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:55 pm

I would try to fix the problem with Turkey.

Turkey is too easily defended once it reaches 5-6 centres. Since neither Austria or Italy can solo without conquering Turkey, this means that they should usually not ally with Turkey if they want to solo (especially Austria, who will have no fleets in such an alliance). This limits the alliance options in the East.

The main problem geographically is that Turkey is so defensible by land. If the opponent has no fleets, a line like ARM/BLA/BUL/GRE/AEG is a 5-unit line protecting 5 SCs; it also has excellent offensive capability. So, my change would be to weaken the power of this position.

How to do that? I'm not sure. I don't want to take away SCs; Turkey already has a hard enough time expanding. I think adding in a land province - perhaps bordering TRI/ALB/SER/GRE - is one option.
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Claesar
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#7 Post by Claesar » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:03 pm

teccles wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:55 pm
I would try to fix the problem with Turkey.
...
How about splitting Bulgaria in two? The main challenge there is that only one can be a supply centre..

So we'd have Bulgaria (supply centre), bordering Rumania, Serbia, Constantinople, Black Sea and Macedonia.

We add Macedonia (no sc), bordering Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria, Constantinople and Aegean Sea. Probably not Albania.

captainmeme
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#8 Post by captainmeme » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:29 pm

Claesar wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:03 pm
teccles wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:55 pm
I would try to fix the problem with Turkey.
...
How about splitting Bulgaria in two? The main challenge there is that only one can be a supply centre..

So we'd have Bulgaria (supply centre), bordering Rumania, Serbia, Constantinople, Black Sea and Macedonia.

We add Macedonia (no sc), bordering Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria, Constantinople and Aegean Sea. Probably not Albania.
My first instinct is that this strengthens Turkey? Because it can get two armies out fir certain in '01.
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PRINCE WILLIAM
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#9 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:47 pm

Το add a province at the north of Greece would be historically correct. At 1901 Greece and Bulgaria or Greece and Serbia had no common borders. Macedonia and Thrace were still Turkish soil.
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Claesar
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#10 Post by Claesar » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:22 pm

captainmeme wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:29 pm
Claesar wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:03 pm
teccles wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:55 pm
I would try to fix the problem with Turkey.
...
How about splitting Bulgaria in two? The main challenge there is that only one can be a supply centre..

So we'd have Bulgaria (supply centre), bordering Rumania, Serbia, Constantinople, Black Sea and Macedonia.

We add Macedonia (no sc), bordering Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria, Constantinople and Aegean Sea. Probably not Albania.
My first instinct is that this strengthens Turkey? Because it can get two armies out fir certain in '01.
It may do so in the early game. It also makes the Turkish defensive position worse though.

In addition, we could swap Syria and Smyrna so the second army arrives late.
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GrBtAce
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#11 Post by GrBtAce » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:38 pm

What I would probably do is fix the border between Italy and Austria.

No other nations share a border in starting supply centers, so why should Italy and Austria? They are generally regarded as the weakest 2 countries on the board, partially because they can betray each other in '01. It is just to easy to attack each other, especially for Italy, which is one of the biggest weaknesses for Austria.

My solution is the Milan variant. If you don't know what it is, it is to make a new tile called Milan, which is a supply center for Italy instead of Venice, and it borders Venice, Piedmont, and maybe Tyrolia (not sure if I would want it to or not).

Also, the next thing would probably be a minor nerf to France, but I'm not quite sure how I would do that.

Overall, the normal Diplomacy map is pretty good.
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e.m.c^42
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Haven't a clue how this would change stalemate lines

#12 Post by e.m.c^42 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:23 pm

Switzerland starts as a neutral SC that if captured, force disbands the army occupying it in Autumn. You still get the build, but you lose the army that you captured it with. The disband happens regardless of all other factors.
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Aristocrat
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#13 Post by Aristocrat » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:05 am

The biggest flaw on the classic map is the main stalemate line. Subdivide Spain or STP (preferably Spain, if you can only pick one) into 2-3 territories and it fixes many problems. Of course some may say that the main stalemate line is part of the game and therefore not a flaw at all, which is a valid opinion, just not one I share.

The existence of stalemate lines is also the biggest flaw in the best variant (Modern) that oftentimes breaks down along the central line.

teccles
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#14 Post by teccles » Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:50 am

Claesar wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:03 pm
teccles wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:55 pm
I would try to fix the problem with Turkey.
...
How about splitting Bulgaria in two? The main challenge there is that only one can be a supply centre..

So we'd have Bulgaria (supply centre), bordering Rumania, Serbia, Constantinople, Black Sea and Macedonia.

We add Macedonia (no sc), bordering Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria, Constantinople and Aegean Sea. Probably not Albania.
I thought of this, but I wasn't sure it actually helps. Turkey can now have a line X GRE/X MAC/X BUL/F BLA/X ARM; we've just moved AEG to MAC.

DrugTito
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#15 Post by DrugTito » Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:19 am

Trieste should be renamed Croatia, end of.
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David E. Cohen
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#16 Post by David E. Cohen » Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:25 am

Like I said, it would take more than one change to "fix" the Standard map. There are a lot of issues.

captainmeme
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#17 Post by captainmeme » Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:34 am

David E. Cohen wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:25 am
Like I said, it would take more than one change to "fix" the Standard map. There are a lot of issues.
Well, this is a great thread to be specific about what changes you're talking about!
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David E. Cohen
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#18 Post by David E. Cohen » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:18 pm

Baron Powell did a really thorough job discussing and thinking about the issues, and came up with 1900. But if you really want me to, I can make a list. :-)
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Brumark
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Re: If you could change one thing...

#19 Post by Brumark » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:11 am

My tuppence worth without giving it huge amounts of thought is that I agree with Teccles around the Turkish position. It is the power I would least like to play because of a Turkish alliance being extremely difficult to manage for both Italy and Austria compared to other alliances. Leading to inherent incentives for those two to gang up and then Russia is left picking between a 2v2 (which tends not to favour RT on a purely tactical basis) or 3v1.

I am firmly in the camp that the asymmetric nature and each power being unique is absolutely a good thing - but I do think in this regard the weight of that meta is stronger and harder to overcome than would be ideal.

In saying that I am cognisant of his may just be as a result of the current meta thinking of the player base and also that last time I checked the stats Turkey ended up doing extremely well in terms of solos and draw inclusion.

I have no suggestions but the change would be around making an IT or AT more feasible longer term to give more genuine options not powering up Turkey. Teccles very much touched on it with the defensibility - it feels the stabs in IT and AT are in the main set up to be a one way street.
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