How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

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Sunstriker
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#61 Post by Sunstriker » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:22 pm

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:27 am
Sploack wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:06 pm
The second one is, and I quote: "Players must enter a game aiming to get the best possible result from the game".
And saying that for a person the best possible result could be a draw is just semantics. The best possible result is winning a game. Drawing is second best.
Ιf a player is not a strong one he cannot aspire to a solo he has to go with a draw.

I object to the idea a weak player cannot aspire to get a solo. Sure I’m likely to loose when I’m tossed into a game with 6 other experienced players, but gosh darn it I still want to try! If I don’t even dream...what a sad state if I don’t even let myself dream to be good enough, to aspire to find that elusive solo.
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Sploack
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#62 Post by Sploack » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:50 pm

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:27 am
Ιf a player is not a strong one he cannot aspire to a solo he has to go with a draw.
I think that's such a wrong statement. The draw is what you must aspire to when it's clear you can't win after the game has been going on for a while. Starting a game with the assumption "I can't possibly win, I'll just try to draw" is not only wrong but also sad.
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Sunstriker
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#63 Post by Sunstriker » Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:26 pm

Sploack wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:50 pm

I think that's such a wrong statement. The draw is what you must aspire to when it's clear you can't win after the game has been going on for a while. Starting a game with the assumption "I can't possibly win, I'll just try to draw" is not only wrong but also sad.
It also means you’re not likely to grow or improve much as a player. If you never practice going for the solo, you’ll never learn to get it. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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David E. Cohen
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#64 Post by David E. Cohen » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:37 pm

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:27 am
Ιf a player is not a strong one he cannot aspire to a solo he has to go with a draw.
This is utterly, completely wrong. The game is Diplomacy, not chess. The strongest Dip players in the world can and do lose to average, or even below average players.
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PRINCE WILLIAM
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#65 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:49 am

That is if he's recognised as the strongest and the others see to his elimination. But one mediocre or weak player may dream of the solo but the realistic approach is that he cannot get it so he has for the moment to settle with less. In order to avoid losing he has to play in alliance and that's when I find it distasteful to betray your ally.

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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#66 Post by Octavious » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:15 am

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:49 am
That is if he's recognised as the strongest and the others see to his elimination. But one mediocre or weak player may dream of the solo but the realistic approach is that he cannot get it so he has for the moment to settle with less. In order to avoid losing he has to play in alliance and that's when I find it distasteful to betray your ally.
:lol:

In order to avoid losing every player has to play in an alliance. There is no magic formula that allows the top ranking players to conquer alone.

The biggest difference between a top player and a shite player is the will to win. The courage to take a risk and give yourself a chance at a solo. That's it. Everything else, aside from a willingness to talk, is relatively marginal. Tell yourself that you realistically have to settle for less and less is all that you will achieve. Even mediocrity will be a level far beyond your grasp until you lose that attitude.
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David E. Cohen
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#67 Post by David E. Cohen » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:54 am

PRINCE WILLIAM wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:49 am
That is if he's recognised as the strongest and the others see to his elimination. But one mediocre or weak player may dream of the solo but the realistic approach is that he cannot get it so he has for the moment to settle with less. In order to avoid losing he has to play in alliance and that's when I find it distasteful to betray your ally.
Diplomacy may not ve the game for you. You might want to consider a game where platers cooperate toward a common goal and no one can get eliminated. Those do exist.
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PRINCE WILLIAM
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#68 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:03 pm

Elimination is not a problem as far as it isn't mine or a friend's! It is a fact that I am too honest and I am not willing to stab an ally.
I am a chess player and I am realistic there as I am here. I know I cannot defeat a player with 200 points over me in the rating unless he makes a blunder but at the same time I do get better with every game. You must always know where you stand and where your limits are. Ι don't think it wrong.
Yet I believe David may be right. I will consider it.

Sploack
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#69 Post by Sploack » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:34 pm

But if you play chess against a player with higher rating than you, you still try to win. You may never succeed, but at least you try. It's the same in diplomacy.

Mercy
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#70 Post by Mercy » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:40 pm

If you play chess against someone with a higher rating than you, you may aim for a draw and people will think you did well if you succeed in that goal.
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Sploack
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#71 Post by Sploack » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:57 pm

Mercy wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:40 pm
If you play chess against someone with a higher rating than you, you may aim for a draw and people will think you did well if you succeed in that goal.
Ok let me rephrase that: if you're playing against a higher rated player in chess, and he blunders hanging his queen, you don't take it because you were aiming to draw and not to win? I know it's an extreme example, but not taking the solo in a game of diplomacy (when you can) because you just wanted the draw is basically the same.

cdngooner
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#72 Post by cdngooner » Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:17 pm

To return this chess analogy to the original post, the question is not whether a draw is a satisfying result for a novice player. It may well be. But that is Draw as a result. The behaviour this thread is about is Draw as "goal".

To use your chess analogy, if the novice player can put the better player in checkmate in one move, but instead takes a bishop because of an agreement he made with the better player, would that be honourable in chess? Because that is the behaviour we are talking about.

I doubt it.

PRINCE WILLIAM
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#73 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:34 pm

No, it is not the same, in chess this agreement is illegal. And chess doesn't include personal relations which diplomacy has.

PRINCE WILLIAM
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#74 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:36 pm

Mercy wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:40 pm
If you play chess against someone with a higher rating than you, you may aim for a draw and people will think you did well if you succeed in that goal.
The same I do in a diplomacy game, and even in anonymous games you can fathom who's a strong player.

ubercacher16
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#75 Post by ubercacher16 » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:17 am

Every time I have soloed an online game or topped the board in an FtF game it was because I manipulated the goals of other players to my benefit. Once a player threw the solo to me in an online press game because I had worked well with him in the early game, and he wanted me to win. In an FtF game once I played weaker powers off each other, convincing them to work with me and help me secure a board top. Since it was a timed game using Carnage scoring their scores were slightly benefitted by working with me instead of fighting me until they were eliminated.

I have never knowingly passed up a reasonable chance at a solo or board top, it's silly to do so imo.

When people tell me that I should "just play the game for the fun of it," I say, "winning is fun."
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jasnah
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#76 Post by jasnah » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:08 am

ubercacher16 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:17 am
Since it was a timed game using Carnage scoring their scores were slightly benefitted by working with me instead of fighting me until they were eliminated.
Possibly the dumbest thing about Carnage. Love it for most other features, but it has the painful tendency to incentivise an appalling amount of janissarying.

flashthompson
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#77 Post by flashthompson » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:02 am

In my mind, if they played well enough to own the board, then they can decide what outcome best represents their efforts to get to that point. They must have built up some trust and stayed true to their words. As a losing player, it may appear disrespectful, but I think the idea is rather that those two powers earned the win together and they wanted the center count to reflect that. I have no problem with that.

Dioptre
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#78 Post by Dioptre » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:47 am

I think a large part of the problem is that both the site betting system and the Ghost-ranking system consider that a participating in any draw is a "win" of some sort, with smaller draws counting as "larger" wins.

Under this scoring system, the optimal strategy is:
- Play in a large number of games
- Conspire to eliminate between 2 and 4 players
- Settle for the draw
- Move on to the next game

The problem is that this leads to very different strategic play. If you are a solo player, you can exploit this system by pretending to be this type of player.

But if you are a smaller power, there is no strategy that works against this. I've lost count of the number of times I've taken over powers with a couple of centers left, where I've actively offered to help a player towards a solo, and they've instead just conspired with their "opponents" to eliminate me, forfeiting any chance of a solo in the process.

I hate this style of play. I won't do it myself, and I'll take advantage of it where-ever I can. I don't think it's unethical though, so long as the scoring system is kept as it is. Any strategy that is within the rules about meta-gaming, and is designed to give a positive score, is ethical. I would think differently if players were deliberately trying to tank.
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Claesar
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#79 Post by Claesar » Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:50 am

Dioptre wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:47 am
I think a large part of the problem is that both the site betting system and the Ghost-ranking system consider that a participating in any draw is a "win" of some sort, with smaller draws counting as "larger" wins.
...
The FTF community is frequently experimenting with a new scoring system called Tribute. It has a lot of positive features.

http://windycityweasels.org/tribute-scoring-system/

Dioptre
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Re: How Do We Feel About Not Even Trying to Win?

#80 Post by Dioptre » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:05 am

I see the advantage this has at various points in the game, but it doesn't deal with the overall strategic equation. Participating in a balanced draw is still a highly desirable goal. This makes it worthwhile to play a diplomatic and tactical strategy that reliably gets to that goal.

For this to change in online play, a draw would need to be counted as a loss. No Zero- Sum scoring system can provide this.

Maybe something like:
100 percent of the pot for a win
Split the pot for a 2 way draw
3 way draw players just get their money back
4 way draw, all players make a loss.

You can tweak how the pot is allocated in various ways, but with essentially an online ladder system, anything that gets a positive reward is incentivised.

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