Suggest an Awesome Opening!

Use this forum to discuss Diplomacy strategy.
Forum rules
This forum is limited to topics relating to the game Diplomacy only. Other posts or topics will be relocated to the correct forum category or deleted. Please be respectful and follow our normal site rules at http://www.webdiplomacy.net/rules.php.
Message
Author
Matticus13
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:21 am
Karma: 197

Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#1 Post by Matticus13 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:19 am

Suggest an interesting (uncommon/unconventional) opening for each country below. I want some creative ideas for my next few Anon/Press games!

1. England

2. France

3. Germany

4. Italy

5. Austria

6. Russia

7. Turkey

Carl Tuckerson
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:23 pm
Karma: 310

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#2 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am

Matticus13 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:19 am
Suggest an interesting (uncommon/unconventional) opening for each country below. I want some creative ideas for my next few Anon/Press games!

1. England

2. France

3. Germany

4. Italy

5. Austria

6. Russia

7. Turkey
England: Open "north" (to Norwegian/North) and move the army to Edinburgh. In the fall, convoy to Norway and move to Skaggerak. This is a very strong position to continue into Scandinavia in 1901.
France: Open to Picardy, Burgundy, Mid-Atlantic Ocean. This forward-deploys your armies as efficiently as possible, lets you have a say on Belgium, and risks very little from England and/or Italy (as in the worst case your armies can retreat and cover, and your fleet can take an Iberian center). You defer one Iberian center until 1902, but the payoff is that you don't lose tempo by sending an army there in 1901.
Germany: Open to Ruhr, Denmark, and Tyrolia. If you're in a press game, your army in Tyrolia will get you a lot of favorable attention from virtually everyone, since you're in position to disrupt Austria or Italy. But the main purpose is to send Tyrolia to Piedmont in the fall as the beginning of a concerted invasion of France, building two armies with your builds from Holland and Denmark. You'll be able to put four armies on the French border by invading Belgium, which breaks the common paradigm of France and Germany stalling out and committing a lot of units to mutual defense.
Italy: Open with a Lepanto, but put your army left behind on the mainland in Tuscany, Rome, or Apulia (adjacent to Venice but not in it). Build a fleet in Venice. In press, sell it as a misorder and point to your move away from your border with Austria as proof you mean no harm. Then move to Adriatic Sea and Venice while convoying into Albania. You now have threats of supported attacks on Trieste or Greece, and ideally on the same turn that Austria pushed into Galicia and Bulgaria, leaving himself exposed to your strike.
Austria: I don't have anything original here.
Russia: In press only, you can get away with Moscow -> St. Petersburg (in addition to the usual suspects). In the fall, my preferred continuation is to Finland, unless England opened to the Channel (in which case just bounce Norway). The end goal is to have an army and 2+ fleets in Scandinavia after builds, which lets you turn Scandinavia into a legitimate basis of operations for further expansion, instead of a giant plot of scorched earth where your goal is to delay an English or German conquest of St. Petersburg for as long as possible. You really need an alliance with Austria or Turkey, preferably Austria so that you can spare the army.
Turkey: Hold Smyrna while moving to Black Sea and Bulgaria. In the fall, if you trust Russia, move Smyrna to Ankara and Ankara to Constantinople, then build in Smyrna. You now have two fleets ready to roll into the Mediterranean, making you virtually impenetrable by Austria/Italy, a critical long-term goal of Turkish strategy in this game. You are risking a lot with Russia here though.

CLRJames
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 4:59 pm
Karma: 17

Re: Suggest an Awesome Openin

#3 Post by CLRJames » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:59 am

One of my favorites for Germany is A Ber-Mun, A Mun-Ruhr, F Kiel-Hol.

It will cost you Denmark, but this opening is a great way to diplomatically tear apart an Anglo-French alliance. The goal is to lure England and Russia into a messy war up north, while deadlocking France in Burgundy and threatening the North Sea. If you’re lucky, the distraction and frustrating loss of momentum will sour E/F’s relationship and bring one of them to the negotiating table.

A fun move as England is to open to the Channel and then send the fleet to MAO instead of Belgium or Brest in the fall. Guaranteed to give France fits, especially if they decide to cover Brest at the cost of a build.

A_Tin_Can
Lifetime Site Contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:18 pm
Karma: 241

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#4 Post by A_Tin_Can » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:33 am

I don't think enough Austrias open to Tyrolia in Spring 01. It's especially hilarious if you bounce Italy there.

A_Tin_Can
Lifetime Site Contributor
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:18 pm
Karma: 241

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#5 Post by A_Tin_Can » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:27 am

But ATC, what do you do if you get in to tyrolia?
Well, then you get to have considerable control over the speed of the west (you can slow down Germany, you can speed up France, you can influence the side that England takes), you can keep Italy honest (or meaningfully threaten Italy - which is not normally available to Austria until about 1903)
But ATC, what do you do if you get in to Tyrolia and Russia is hostile and in Galicia?
Obviously, you try to avoid that happening.

Ideally, Russia is going North, and a good friend to you. I mean "doing things that are good for Austria" is ideally what *everyone* else is doing.
But ATC, where do the other units go?
Serbia and Albania, probably? Who cares, you're in Tyrolia, and it is *hilarious*
2

ubercacher16
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:47 am
Location: Illinois
Karma: 44

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#6 Post by ubercacher16 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:52 pm

One thing I like to do as Austria is after bouncing in Galicia moving to Bohemia to free up Vienna and Bud for builds.

This is purely tactical and I've only done it in gunboat.

Carl Tuckerson
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:23 pm
Karma: 310

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#7 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:01 pm

ubercacher16 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:52 pm
One thing I like to do as Austria is after bouncing in Galicia moving to Bohemia to free up Vienna and Bud for builds.

This is purely tactical and I've only done it in gunboat.
Ooh, strong play. I'll give that a look the next time I draw Austria. I like that you're almost certain to force Galicia and, if you take it with Galicia, Bohemia cleanly slides into Silesia the next turn to pressure Warsaw.
Hopefully Italy runs the Lepanto and ties up Turkey.

BananaFang
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:26 pm
Karma: 5

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#8 Post by BananaFang » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:14 pm

Austria
Andrew Goff is known for A Vie – Tyl; A Bud – Gal, and many of the best American players regularly avoid arranged bounces in Galicia.
from: https://diplomacyopenings.wordpress.com ... an-gambit/

I haven't even tried this but it is definitely a non-standard opening so I thought I'd mention it.

France
Mine is more about the continuation than the opening itself but my favored opening is:
Mar-Bur
Par-Gas
Bre-MAO

I tell Germany that I would really love a bounce in Bur since allowing him into it on the first turn would be disastrous for me so I must protect it at all costs. If he allows me in I will work with him regarding Belgium but will not make any attempt on Munich. Ideally I get the bounce and then the Fall moves are
Mar-Spa
MAO convoy Gas-Por

Assuming England doesn't open to the channel you have protected borders, stayed in MAO for better fleet tempo, and get 2 builds. You can stage an effective attack on England from this position by setting up a convoy over MAO/NAO. The fleet position plus the 2 builds give you a lot of versatility.

If England does open to the channel you have both MAO and Gas which can cover it in a few combinations. I haven't face this very often though.

If Italy opens to Piedmont you can hold in Mar which is better than the guessing game over Spa/Pie you get into if you move Mar-Spa initially. Adjust the moves for MAO/Gas as you see fit.

ziran
Posts: 208
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:21 am
Karma: 73
Contact:

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#9 Post by ziran » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:03 pm

Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am
England: Open "north" (to Norwegian/North) and move the army to Edinburgh. In the fall, convoy to Norway and move to Skaggerak. This is a very strong position to continue into Scandinavia in 1901.
I like this in theory, but it is highly dependent on what Germany and France do. If it works it's the dream ticket. You could get both Swe and StP by 1902.
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am
Germany: Open to Ruhr, Denmark, and Tyrolia. If you're in a press game, your army in Tyrolia will get you a lot of favorable attention from virtually everyone, since you're in position to disrupt Austria or Italy. But the main purpose is to send Tyrolia to Piedmont in the fall as the beginning of a concerted invasion of France, building two armies with your builds from Holland and Denmark. You'll be able to put four armies on the French border by invading Belgium, which breaks the common paradigm of France and Germany stalling out and committing a lot of units to mutual defense.
How can one open to both Ruhr and Tryolia?
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am
Russia: In press only, you can get away with Moscow -> St. Petersburg (in addition to the usual suspects). In the fall, my preferred continuation is to Finland, unless England opened to the Channel (in which case just bounce Norway). The end goal is to have an army and 2+ fleets in Scandinavia after builds, which lets you turn Scandinavia into a legitimate basis of operations for further expansion, instead of a giant plot of scorched earth where your goal is to delay an English or German conquest of St. Petersburg for as long as possible. You really need an alliance with Austria or Turkey, preferably Austria so that you can spare the army.
My preferred continuation is always to Finland. Bouncing in Norway keeps you from building a fleet.

Magnetic24
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:41 am
Karma: 222

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#10 Post by Magnetic24 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:09 pm

Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am
Germany: Open to Ruhr, Denmark, and Tyrolia. If you're in a press game, your army in Tyrolia will get you a lot of favorable attention from virtually everyone, since you're in position to disrupt Austria or Italy. But the main purpose is to send Tyrolia to Piedmont in the fall as the beginning of a concerted invasion of France, building two armies with your builds from Holland and Denmark. You'll be able to put four armies on the French border by invading Belgium, which breaks the common paradigm of France and Germany stalling out and committing a lot of units to mutual defense.
I've personally sworn off the German opening to Tyrolia. Ever since my aunt did it to me as Germany when I played Diplomacy for the first time, I haven't done it. (of course, that's beside the point.)

My question is - what happens if France moves to Burgundy, as so many do? In a no press game, Tyrolia has to move back to Munich, or you risk losing Munich in '01. Even in a press game, France is going to be inclined to move to Burgundy essentially no matter what. England would have to be a terrible player to allow this to happen, and I try to open to Burgundy every game in case of this. Also, regardless of a press or no press game, you need Russia on your side for this strategy to work. Italy is going to be frazzled in the Spring for your move to Tyrolia and you may even be risking a bounce. Austria's obviously not happy either, and you may be artificially forcing an AI.

Other than that, I think your openings are excellent and I will be using them in the future. I've never seen a successful Germany in an opening to Tyrolia from what I can remember, and I'd like to hear how you'd defend it. The move to Piedmont is good, but some serious diplomacy would have to go behind it.

Claesar
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1731
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1229

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#11 Post by Claesar » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:39 pm

Magnetic24 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:09 pm
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am
Germany: Open to Ruhr, Denmark, and Tyrolia.
...
I've personally sworn off the German opening to Tyrolia.
...
I tried Mun-Tyr for a while in Gunboat because CaptainMeme said it was good.

In my experience, opening to Tyrolia allows you to take Venice..
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=217490
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=198285

Or Piedmont, if you think that's better:
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=213242


I tried it twice more, but I indeed moved back to Munich in those. The problem is, I don't think taking Venice or Piedmont is particularly good. You're hurting Italy, who is your natural ally.

To be fair, CM's reasoning for opening to Tyrolia was to bounce Italy and thereby protect your (other natural) Austrian ally. Unfortunately, I never managed to do that.. The Tyrolian opener doesn't seem very popular right now.

Carl Tuckerson
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:23 pm
Karma: 310

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#12 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:19 pm

ziran wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:03 pm
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am
England: Open "north" (to Norwegian/North) and move the army to Edinburgh. In the fall, convoy to Norway and move to Skaggerak. This is a very strong position to continue into Scandinavia in 1901.
I like this in theory, but it is highly dependent on what Germany and France do. If it works it's the dream ticket. You could get both Swe and StP by 1902.
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am
Germany: Open to Ruhr, Denmark, and Tyrolia. If you're in a press game, your army in Tyrolia will get you a lot of favorable attention from virtually everyone, since you're in position to disrupt Austria or Italy. But the main purpose is to send Tyrolia to Piedmont in the fall as the beginning of a concerted invasion of France, building two armies with your builds from Holland and Denmark. You'll be able to put four armies on the French border by invading Belgium, which breaks the common paradigm of France and Germany stalling out and committing a lot of units to mutual defense.
How can one open to both Ruhr and Tryolia?
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am
Russia: In press only, you can get away with Moscow -> St. Petersburg (in addition to the usual suspects). In the fall, my preferred continuation is to Finland, unless England opened to the Channel (in which case just bounce Norway). The end goal is to have an army and 2+ fleets in Scandinavia after builds, which lets you turn Scandinavia into a legitimate basis of operations for further expansion, instead of a giant plot of scorched earth where your goal is to delay an English or German conquest of St. Petersburg for as long as possible. You really need an alliance with Austria or Turkey, preferably Austria so that you can spare the army.
My preferred continuation is always to Finland. Bouncing in Norway keeps you from building a fleet.
I don't think most of the openings I posted are as strong as the stock openings; they're stock for a reason. The English opening, for instance, presumes France will play ball, when we know that's usually not the case. What I tried to do was create alternative openings that, assuming a certain condition is met (sometimes in line with what we know, sometimes not), are as powerful as the stock openings.
If you know France will play ball, I think the Skaggerak opening is the strongest position England can assume in gunboat.

RE: Ruhr/Tyrolia, I typoed, I meant Kiel/Tyrolia. Good catch.

RE: Finland. Sound logic. I can see that being the case. I'm figuring there are spots where you can force England to abandon Scandinavia altogether if he's bounced in Norway, but certainly most of the time it's reasonable to continue to Finland, build a fleet in St. Petersburg, and go to town.

Carl Tuckerson
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:23 pm
Karma: 310

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#13 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:27 pm

Magnetic24 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:09 pm
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am
Germany: Open to Ruhr, Denmark, and Tyrolia. If you're in a press game, your army in Tyrolia will get you a lot of favorable attention from virtually everyone, since you're in position to disrupt Austria or Italy. But the main purpose is to send Tyrolia to Piedmont in the fall as the beginning of a concerted invasion of France, building two armies with your builds from Holland and Denmark. You'll be able to put four armies on the French border by invading Belgium, which breaks the common paradigm of France and Germany stalling out and committing a lot of units to mutual defense.
I've personally sworn off the German opening to Tyrolia. Ever since my aunt did it to me as Germany when I played Diplomacy for the first time, I haven't done it. (of course, that's beside the point.)

My question is - what happens if France moves to Burgundy, as so many do? In a no press game, Tyrolia has to move back to Munich, or you risk losing Munich in '01. Even in a press game, France is going to be inclined to move to Burgundy essentially no matter what. England would have to be a terrible player to allow this to happen, and I try to open to Burgundy every game in case of this. Also, regardless of a press or no press game, you need Russia on your side for this strategy to work. Italy is going to be frazzled in the Spring for your move to Tyrolia and you may even be risking a bounce. Austria's obviously not happy either, and you may be artificially forcing an AI.

Other than that, I think your openings are excellent and I will be using them in the future. I've never seen a successful Germany in an opening to Tyrolia from what I can remember, and I'd like to hear how you'd defend it. The move to Piedmont is good, but some serious diplomacy would have to go behind it.
You had family that played Diplomacy with you? Awesome.

RE: the Tyrolean opening. It is somewhat of a shell game. France has a real incentive to read your move to Tyrolia as intending to meddle with Italy or Austria, and not the prelude to an assault on Burgundy. Indeed, if I had to guess, I think most French players who are thinking about the situation would conclude that you will be moving back to Munich in response to their move to Burgundy, since after all you "have" to do it right? In which case, isn't the worst move they could make to go for Munich? It will just bounce, you will take Holland and then be forced into building armies in Kiel and Munich, and France will start a war.
No question, you are gambling that France will be thinking along these lines and not go for Munich. It's a big risk. But if you win the gamble, you will have overwhelming force on Burgundy in the Spring.


All that said, a better continuation probably involves you moving to Tyrolia in S02, after builds. Maybe arrange the bounce in Tyrolia in press, then arrange to get in for the fall; or maybe just hold Munich in spring then move to Tyrolia in the fall. You're still gambling that France doesn't go to Burgundy then Munich, but I think the gamble is much easier to make, because it's hard to see why France would think Munich would be open.

BobMcBob
Posts: 706
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:28 am
Location: Also Not Austalia
Karma: 594

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#14 Post by BobMcBob » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:45 am

Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:27 pm
All that said, a better continuation probably involves you moving to Tyrolia in S02, after builds. Maybe arrange the bounce in Tyrolia in press, then arrange to get in for the fall; or maybe just hold Munich in spring then move to Tyrolia in the fall. You're still gambling that France doesn't go to Burgundy then Munich, but I think the gamble is much easier to make, because it's hard to see why France would think Munich would be open.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you also move to Burgundy in Spring then move to Tyrolia in the fall? (Presuming of course that you have done any relevant negotiations with Italy). You are of course risking France not moving to Burgundy and you actually getting in, but if a bounce in Burgundy is as likely as you say it is... And you can also gently coerce a bounce out of France through press. Open up negotiations with them, but demand too many things from them, or insult them too much, or "accidentally" let slip that you're going to betray them. That last one could work particularly well, for example:
"I'm going to do the standard opening, moving to Burgundy, Denmark and Kiel, once we've both got our builds, we should be able to start invading France next year."
"Whoops, wrong chat."

If that doesn't convince France to bounce you in Burgundy, I don't know what will. Then you can precede as Carl outlined, with no risk of France taking Munich.
1

ziran
Posts: 208
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:21 am
Karma: 73
Contact:

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#15 Post by ziran » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am

Conversely, any French players ever open to Pie, with the intention of continuing to Tyr?

Claesar
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1731
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1229

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#16 Post by Claesar » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:53 am

ziran wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am
Conversely, any French players ever open to Pie, with the intention of continuing to Tyr?
No, but I've opened to Pie with the intention of bouncing Italy. When that didn't happen, I kept on trucking. If I remember correctly. I'll try to find an example if I don't forget.

ubercacher16
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:47 am
Location: Illinois
Karma: 44

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#17 Post by ubercacher16 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:10 am

I've moved to Pie in 1902 and onwards with the intention of outflanking the German land defense. Usually works.

Carl Tuckerson
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:23 pm
Karma: 310

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#18 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:58 am

ziran wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am
Conversely, any French players ever open to Pie, with the intention of continuing to Tyr?
Good thought, but I'm not as sold on France doing it, for three reasons.

(1) Because of many old articles about Germany opening to Tyrolia as a move to protect Austria (or itself), Germany moving to Tyrolia isn't viewed as innately hostile to Italy and Austria. France moving to Piedmont is much more likely to be viewed that way (although in press games this obviously can be mitigated). The risk of provoking a lame war with Italy is much higher.
(2) The main reason opening to Tyrolia could work is that it's very rare for people to move to Piedmont in A01; if you get into Tyrolia then you're virtually guaranteed to get into Piedmont in the fall. And if you don't get in, then you're still in Munich, capable of doing other things. Meanwhile, unexpected moves to Tyrolia in A01 are far more likely to occur, if Italy decides to pivot against Austria after the first turn (though typically this involves going to Trieste, sometimes it involves Tyrolia instead). There's a higher risk of you bouncing and getting stuck. And unlike Munich, Piedmont is a horrible place to be stuck if you're France, since you've now given up the ghost to Germany and have no ability to force your way in.
(3) France has a much more attractive path to conquering England than Germany does, so it hurts France more to commit to attacking Germany via the Alps than it hurts Germany to "commit" to the same attack, since it's easier for Germany to bail on it and use Tyrolia to influence Austria/Italy if circumstances change.

Claesar
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1731
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1229

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#19 Post by Claesar » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:20 am

Claesar wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:53 am
ziran wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am
Conversely, any French players ever open to Pie, with the intention of continuing to Tyr?
No, but I've opened to Pie with the intention of bouncing Italy. When that didn't happen, I kept on trucking. If I remember correctly. I'll try to find an example if I don't forget.
Can't find an example, so it seems I misremembered :(

Matticus13
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:21 am
Karma: 197

Re: Suggest an Awesome Opening!

#20 Post by Matticus13 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:15 am

I had forgotten about this thread... Awesome stuff. Anyone try the Blue Water Lepanto or the Key Lepanto as Austria or Italy?? I definitely want to give it a shot. I will probably have to be Austria... Most of y'all would be chicken :P

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests