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Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:07 am
by ziran
Basically, when you know Germany is going to move Den-Swe in fall 01, you convince Russia to move GoB-BAL, and you convoy to Denmark. What is this called? Also do people use it? Like it? How do you follow up?

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:10 am
by Nikola Maric Eto
Sweet Danish. :) You continue to kick asses. And watch Liverpool.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:19 pm
by MajorMitchell
Definitely keep an eye on Liverpool if Peregrine Falcon is around and about.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:34 am
by ziran
any articles about it? can't seem to find any.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:43 am
by Nikola Maric Eto
Doubt that there are any, but the opening is very interesting. I just gave it a name. :) Doubt that it can be pushed on more experienced players without them allying against you, but if TAI could push north enough from the start, than it becomes a very, very interesting opening. Me like it.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:34 am
by et
http://www.dipwiki.com/index.php?title=Northern_Opening
That opening is called as 'MAGDE BURG' in this site.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:10 pm
by Nikola Maric Eto
Ours is better. :)

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:35 pm
by Bark
What would you be promising Russia? He'll antagonize Germany, who will probably be getting two or three builds. Holding onto Denmark will be a lot of work too.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:06 pm
by Hellenic Riot
Bark wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:35 pm
What would you be promising Russia? He'll antagonize Germany, who will probably be getting two or three builds. Holding onto Denmark will be a lot of work too.
You could use it with Russia opening North, to actually get long-term stable borders for an E/R Alliance by letting Russia have Norway with the army.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:41 pm
by Bark
Hellenic Riot wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Bark wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:35 pm
What would you be promising Russia? He'll antagonize Germany, who will probably be getting two or three builds. Holding onto Denmark will be a lot of work too.
You could use it with Russia opening North, to actually get long-term stable borders for an E/R Alliance by letting Russia have Norway with the army.
It would be an impressive bit of diplomacy. Russia would only have two units in the South, so Russia would have to be pretty secure with Austria to either get Galicia in the spring or forego the attempt and move Warsaw to Ukraine instead to get Rumania in the fall. Still only gets Russia two builds with an angry and potentially stronger Germany. I think France would need to be in on the action too.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:10 pm
by Matticus13
Bark wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:41 pm
Hellenic Riot wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Bark wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:35 pm
What would you be promising Russia? He'll antagonize Germany, who will probably be getting two or three builds. Holding onto Denmark will be a lot of work too.
You could use it with Russia opening North, to actually get long-term stable borders for an E/R Alliance by letting Russia have Norway with the army.
It would be an impressive bit of diplomacy. Russia would only have two units in the South, so Russia would have to be pretty secure with Austria to either get Galicia in the spring or forego the attempt and move Warsaw to Ukraine instead to get Rumania in the fall. Still only gets Russia two builds with an angry and potentially stronger Germany. I think France would need to be in on the action too.
I know this might sound like Diplomacy heresy (and potentially suicide in the South), but what if Russia plays War->Sil? The extra army puts 3 units (a 4th if you France opens to Bur) contesting (perhaps even occupying 1) German centers by the end of 01'. Russia would need a DMZ at Gal, and likely at least a non-aggression pact with Turkey.

Might be fantasy. Might be fun...

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:33 pm
by mhsmith0
There are a few downsides to Russia going War-Sil in general:

1) Germany has approximately 0% odds of letting him into Sweden
2) He's wide open to Austrian aggression
3) He's in serious trouble if Turkey's going to fight him

THAT SAID, that sort of opening can potentially work decently as part of an Eastern Triple (R/A/T). In order for it to work you probably need Austria to get into Tyr/Boh in the spring so that you can have a chance at forcing Munich in the fall, and you also run the risk of making everyone else on the board aware of your plans and stop everything to stymie you... but it at least does have a chance of working. I'd tend to prefer being more subtle about weird alliances (friendly A/R opening, Russia opens War-Ukr and Mos-STP [looking like anti-england]; Austria opens heavily anti-Italy [Tri-Adr + Vie-Tyr or Vie-Tri are very strong openings potentially] ), and then Turkey "just happens" to benefit from the chaos or the like.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:21 am
by Matticus13
mhsmith0 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:33 pm
Germany has approximately 0% odds of letting him into Sweden.
Right. That's why England has to let the army in StP take Norway as suggested earlier. The plan is to have the Russian fleet in the Baltic Sea at the end of '01.

Russia is certainly vulnerable in the south. As long as T/A hold off for '01, the one build (potentially 2 depending on Russia's skill/diplomacy/luck) coming can shore up the south. Looks like a fun mess ;)

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:13 pm
by Claesar
A Nexus tournament game recently started with War-Sil and Vie-Boh to gain the desired opening position for this thread:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... image0.png

An English convoy to Denmark is indeed a valid strategy here.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:54 am
by Bark
Claesar wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:13 pm
A Nexus tournament game recently started with War-Sil and Vie-Boh to gain the desired opening position for this thread:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... image0.png

An English convoy to Denmark is indeed a valid strategy here.
Wow. So it doesn't look like France is in on the action. Turkey could very well decide to move to Serbia with the trailing unit following to Bulgaria. Maybe Austria intends to move Rumania to Serbia to give Rum to Russia, but that'll bounce. Russia appears to not be getting any builds without support. Turkey will get the Black Sea. Italy is in Trieste. I expect both Russia and Austria to be in bad shape in this game.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:56 am
by Bark
Bark wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:54 am
Claesar wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:13 pm
A Nexus tournament game recently started with War-Sil and Vie-Boh to gain the desired opening position for this thread:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... image0.png

An English convoy to Denmark is indeed a valid strategy here.
Wow. So it doesn't look like France is in on the action. Turkey could very well decide to move to Serbia with the trailing unit following to Bulgaria. Maybe Austria intends to move Rumania to Serbia to give Rum to Russia, but that'll bounce. Russia appears to not be getting any builds without support. Turkey will get the Black Sea. Italy is in Trieste. I expect both Russia and Austria to be in bad shape in this game.
Heck, if Austria is hell bent on Greece, Italy could be devious and support Turkey to Serbia. I'll be curious to see how this game turns out.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:34 am
by ziran
here's a game in which i, as england, opened with this. it didn't go too well but i bounced back.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:29 am
by Matticus13
ziran wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:34 am
here's a game in which i, as england, opened with this. it didn't go too well but i bounced back.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel
This game would have been PERFECT for War->Sil (if Russia could have arranged a DMZ at Gal [offer support into Rum in F01 if Austria orders Vie->Bud???]) IF you gave them Norway F01.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:48 pm
by A_Tin_Can
The convoy option *is* hilarious, but if you know Denmark is going to be open and France isn't a threat, wouldn't it it better to put the fleet there? You have better options in the medium term, and retreating out of Denmark is probably more valuable than having the unit popped.

Re: Does this English opening have a name?

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:09 pm
by Carl Tuckerson
Lots of interesting discussion but how do y'all feel comfortable enough to try these openings in 1901?? I like the concept behind it because it seems like the game "really starts" in 1902, after people have grabbed neutrals and dallied around in key border provinces and words have been exchanged, so you're getting a sort of head start on the game--but man, Russia committing to a DMZ in Galicia and moving to Silesia on the first turn, in reliance on England to move to Denmark and not take Norway to get a build at all (or guessing right on a German home center)? What if England just doesn't play ball?