How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

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leon1122
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How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#1 Post by leon1122 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:31 pm

I’ve always heard people say that the Juggernaut alliance is OP, but I have never found any success in it because each time I’ve formed a Juggernaut alliance, a Lepanto alliance formed in response, and there would be no way to break through said alliance. For instance, take this game I played as Turkey:

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... chive=Maps

I believe that Russia and I played a pretty much optimal early game. We didn’t even take the turn to bounce in Black Sea! However, we still got bogged down by Austria and Italy, unable to advance, and eventually Russia was forced to stab me. So as I asked in the title, how do you defeat a Lepanto alliance when both members of the Juggernaut alliance are fully cooperating?
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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#2 Post by Octavious » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:16 pm

Gosh... How long have we been able to view the maps like that?
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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#3 Post by Octavious » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:27 pm

As for the example, I hate to point out the obvious but the juggernaut won. At the end of the day the chief purpose of an alliance is to advance you closer to a solo, and that's exactly what this juggernaut did.
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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#4 Post by Claesar » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:56 pm

Russia wasn't forced to stab you at all. They did so because it seemed a good move and it worked out.

A/I did defend perfectly, which indeed slows your advancement. I don't see a way of breaking through, but if you do the Juggernaut is unstoppable..

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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#5 Post by leon1122 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:59 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:16 pm
Gosh... How long have we been able to view the maps like that?
Since as long as I’ve been on this site. It’s at the bottom of the page, Archive: Maps.
Octavious wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:27 pm
As for the example, I hate to point out the obvious but the juggernaut won. At the end of the day the chief purpose of an alliance is to advance you closer to a solo, and that's exactly what this juggernaut did.
Right, but what I mean is the traditional R/T 2-way, where Turkey goes on to take Italy and Russia continues on northward. Is that not possible when facing an A/I alliance?

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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#6 Post by leon1122 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:02 pm

Claesar wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:56 pm
Russia wasn't forced to stab you at all. They did so because it seemed a good move and it worked out.

A/I did defend perfectly, which indeed slows your advancement. I don't see a way of breaking through, but if you do the Juggernaut is unstoppable..
If there is no way to break through, then I consider it the case that one ally is forced to stab the other. What I am asking is if there is any way to avoid such a situation after the A/I alliance had formed other than trying to get them to break up.

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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#7 Post by mhsmith0 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:10 am

France was barreling towards italy by 1904, so that’s another thing which can hurt an AI.

I’d also note that Russia having a fleet in Rumania is awkward against AI because it means that austria is pretty safe against Russia. If you trust Russia enough, a fleet in Black Sea an an army in rum is very strong against austria. If Russia trusts YOU enough, destroying the fleet is helpful for you, and Russia can be more army focused.

Also: spring 1902, you could have tapped Greece with Bulgaria to protect your F AEG, and gotten Russia to support con-bul with his F rum since that unit wasn’t doing anything useful anyway. Somewhat risky but decent odds to get you into AEG and EMED, and from there, AI can’t really do much against you barring a Russian stab (which he started in on in spring 1902 by going to BLA btw even if full stab wasn’t untul 1903)

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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#8 Post by leon1122 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:07 am

mhsmith0 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:10 am
France was barreling towards italy by 1904, so that’s another thing which can hurt an AI.
True, but by then the Western front had been resolved, and it would have been far too late for a Juggernaut to achieve true success.
mhsmith0 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:10 am
I’d also note that Russia having a fleet in Rumania is awkward against AI because it means that austria is pretty safe against Russia. If you trust Russia enough, a fleet in Black Sea an an army in rum is very strong against austria.
But Russia needed both armies to get into Galicia. Isn't that more important than taking Rumania with an army?
mhsmith0 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:10 am
If Russia trusts YOU enough, destroying the fleet is helpful for you, and Russia can be more army focused.
There's no way I could have spared the units to destroy that fleet while fighting against Italy and Austria.
mhsmith0 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:10 am
Also: spring 1902, you could have tapped Greece with Bulgaria to protect your F AEG, and gotten Russia to support con-bul with his F rum since that unit wasn’t doing anything useful anyway.
But then Russia wouldn't have been able to move his fleet to the Black Sea, which, as you just pointed out, is very important defensively.
mhsmith0 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:10 am
...barring a Russian stab (which he started in on in spring 1902 by going to BLA btw even if full stab wasn’t untul 1903)
Maybe, but just like you said, he needed to move that fleet to Black Sea no matter what.


In any case, I seem to have found the answer to my question. It seems that there is no way for a Juggernaut to overpower a well-coordinated A/I alliance.

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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#9 Post by Nikola Maric Eto » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:05 pm

Important thing against Lepanto - Russia enters Rumania with a ground army in '01, so Austria is under pressure.
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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#10 Post by Peregrine Falcon » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:53 pm

leon1122 wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:07 am
In any case, I seem to have found the answer to my question. It seems that there is no way for a Juggernaut to overpower a well-coordinated A/I alliance.
I think you're thinking about this from the wrong angle. It is never trivial for any alliance to defeat an opposing, coordinated alliance of equal power by tactics alone. All such oppositions tend to deadlock.

The only reason the Jugg v Lepanto example stands out is because it's the only common 2v2 combination. If Russias committing heavily in the north were more common, we might have similar questions about EF v GR.

At the end of the day, the core of this game is about balance. No unit is stronger than any other, so you need support. No power is truly stronger than any other, so you need allies. And no alliance is stronger than an equivilant opposition. So don't fight an equivilant opposition. The point is to break the inherent balance of power in your favour.
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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#11 Post by Restitution » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:16 pm

Saying that the Juggernaut never works, and then using the example of a Russia achieving a solo using a Juggernaut as evidence that it doesn't work.

The idea of an alliance only being viable if it can wipe out the opposing 2v2 completely and lead to a safe rational 2-way is a bit much.

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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#12 Post by Bark » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:27 pm

Lost in the details is that Germany turns around fairly early to fight The Juggernaut too, so the cat was out of the bag.

I think the ideal Juggernaut is a mystery in 1901. The Black Sea Bounce serves a political purpose in Spring of '01. Like others have said, Russia needs an army in Rumania. I actually question how solid this Juggernaut was, as it appears Russia was playing a deep game.

I would say do the bounce in Spring '01, then let Russia take the Black Sea in Fall '01. From here you have three options:

First is to somehow orchestrate that fleet's immediate disbanding, which will require at least two fleets in Con/Ank/Arm.

Second is to trust Russia enough to have him sail through Con in the Spring of '02 to the AEG or Bul/sc in the Fall of '02. The disadvantages here are obvious, but the advantage is that you can cry foul to others and no one will suspect the Juggernaut that summer.

Third is a status quo until Russia loses a center and needs to disband somewhere, and he chooses that fleet. This could take a short time or a long time depending on the map.

The bottom line is the Juggernaut can't be confirmed in 1901. Some deception is necessary at the start.

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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#13 Post by Restitution » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:44 pm

Bark wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:27 pm
The bottom line is the Juggernaut can't be confirmed in 1901. Some deception is necessary at the start.
In what world is the Juggernaut not confirmed in 1901? I think to any decent player, it will be confirmed once they bounce in Black and Russia takes Ukraine.

To be honest, I consider Russia and Turkey both being capable of spelling as confirmation of a Juggernaut. The Juggernaut is the default assumption and needs to be actively disproved by something like Sev > Arm or someone taking Black.

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Re: How do can you defeat a Lepanto alliance as a Juggernaut alliance?

#14 Post by Ogion » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:44 am

I"d also point out that the juggernaut didn't get anywhere. It was the wintergreen that broke the east, but then one member of the alliance got creamed. I find this not an uncommon outcome of a juggernaut. For my money, I almost never will tolerate Russia in the Black Sea for exactly this reason. You're just too open to the stab.

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