Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

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fourofswords
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Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#1 Post by fourofswords » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:20 am

Why, tell me why, if you can, why every Russian player besides me, and every Turkish player besides me likes to bounce in the Black Sea? I expect the typical answers: "It fools everyone into thinking there is no R/T juggernaut!" Not true. "It stops the other one from attacking you!" Not true. What it does is slow the advance west. It forces the Russian to bring the Moscow unit to Ukraine and then use it to support the fleet into Rumania, or vice versa, and it prevents the Turkish fleet from getting into Constantinople and then the Aegean in fall. It does not stop a war between the two. Olease, see if you can tell me anything positive about it except helping noobs to think that they are sneaky.
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Wusti
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#2 Post by Wusti » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:39 pm

I +1'd you for the rage element. I like your passion!

Read the various guides out there.

Claesar
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#3 Post by Claesar » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:57 pm

As Turkey I highly value protecting myself with a fleet in the Black Sea. It's a really strong position, even when you're allied to Russia. As a result, I want to ram that fleet in there.

Where does that leave Russia? What moves should they do other than Sevas-BLA? You might suggest Sevas-Rum coupled with War-Ukr, but a fleet in Rumania stymies any potential attack against Austria.

That's just my side of the story though. I can understand you prefer to start Ank-Con to defend against a Lepanto. But then what does Russia do with their fleet? Again, parking it in Rumania is actually anti-Turkey.
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foodcoats
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#4 Post by foodcoats » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:24 pm

The Black Sea is very powerful. It borders on three home SCs and two neutrals. Whichever power controls it has great influence on the entire ring for orchestrating both attacks and defense, and because there are no other adjacent sea zones it can be very difficult to dislodge.

I think Turkey and Russia need a very good reason NOT to open to Black Sea.

That said, if I'm R or T, and I feel the other party is committed to the Jugg, I'll happily DMZ BLA (I like F Ank to Con, A Smy to Ank, F Sev hold).

SirThursday
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#5 Post by SirThursday » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:54 pm

If you know/trust your neighbor, neither player taking it can be a decent strategy. If you live in reality, though, both nations want it for good reasons, and area denial is still valuable.

As Russia, the move stalls Turkey. If Turkey takes the Sea in the Spring, they can take Rumania or Sev with relative ease, and that unit is very difficult for a Russian to dislodge later. Turkey with two builds almost invariably attacks Russia, so stalling Turkey forces Turkey to cooperate or encourages Austria to attack Turkey with Russia. If Russia takes the Sea in the fall, or blocks it twice, Turkey may build a second fleet in Ank or Con instead of Smyrna because the Sea is so valuable for him, meaning Turkey is highly vulnerable to Italian fleets and is "overly-committed" to one half of the peninsula, and the fleets would take many turns to maneuver into better positions without blocking armies or other builds.

As Turkey, it is critical to defend yourself from unknown Russian intentions. Also, getting fleets into Black Sea and Aegean must be your first priorities if you want to do anything in any game. With those units, Turkey can force their way out of the corner and thus influence the Balkans. Black Sea is the best convoy unit in the game, as Turkey is irritatingly slow to escape from and get builds out of. BS C Army Ank to Rum is an excellent fast-paced move, and allows for the fastest path to the front lines (Ank to Rum to Gal to Silesia is an attack on Germany in only 3 moves). Without that convoy, every new unit has to walk for 1 or 2 years (3/4 moves) before they can be useful. Fleets are best in water: you should (almost) never take a center with a fleet if you can convoy instead, but if you don't have the fleet in the water, you don't even have the option

ghug
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#6 Post by ghug » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:00 pm

The thing is that the fleets are really only useful against each other to begin with. A Russian fleet in Romania pretty much forces conflict with Turkey, and getting the Turkish fleet out to the Med considerably slows the flow of armies into the Balkans. Combine the low upside with the severe downside of being lied to, and a bounce makes lots of sense.

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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#7 Post by TrPrado » Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:51 pm

I like the trident opening as Turkey. Simple man, simple pleasures.

Claesar
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#8 Post by Claesar » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:12 pm

TrPrado wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:51 pm
I like the trident opening as Turkey. Simple man, simple pleasures.
Google doesn't know what you're talking about, but I presume that's
Con-Bul
Ank-Bla
Smy-Arm
?

That's also how you opened in the last Modboat. And the ODC2015..
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TrPrado
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#9 Post by TrPrado » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:04 am

Claesar wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:12 pm
TrPrado wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:51 pm
I like the trident opening as Turkey. Simple man, simple pleasures.
Google doesn't know what you're talking about, but I presume that's
Con-Bul
Ank-Bla
Smy-Arm
?

That's also how you opened in the last Modboat. And the ODC2015..
Simple man, simple pleasures.

Dejan0707
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#10 Post by Dejan0707 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:11 pm

In my opinion bounce in the black sea between Russia and Turkey is the best move for both nation. It actually is only first move bounce in the whole game that could be taken for granted in every situation. It is true that it costs both countries a bit but return value is so much more valuable that it always pay off.

Reason for this is that if you are playing any other nation and you agree to not bounce with your neighbour, and your neighbour lie and move to that zone, you will have positional weakness compared to you neighbour. Positional weakness that you can work around and fix if you play good game.

If you dmz black sea and you neighbour move in you are completely outplayed with slim chances you can do much about it. And it is only first move of a game!

If you want to be in control of the game you either move to black sea or bounce there. By not moving you risk that your opponent will move there, and then your fate would be decided elsewhere, and not by you.

Claesar
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#11 Post by Claesar » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:34 pm

Dejan0707 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:11 pm
...
Reason for this is that if you are playing any other nation and you agree to not bounce with your neighbour, and your neighbour lie and move to that zone, you will have positional weakness compared to you neighbour. Positional weakness that you can work around and fix if you play good game.
...
Very good point, but it goes further in my opinion.

If you agree to not bounce with your neighbour, you usually gain an advantage because that unit can do something else. For Turkey this is partly true, as moving to Con with that fleet guards you against a Lepanto. You do strand your second army though, so I'm not even a big fan of that move if Black Sea was impregnable akin to Switzerland.

But what is Russia supposed to do instead with that fleet? As I said earlier, if you park it in Rumania, you limit your movement as it can't support against Austria. As a result, that move is anti-Turkey. The other two movement options are Black Sea (DMZ stab) and Armenia, which are even more anti-Turkey! Consequently, Turkey should always insist on a bounce in Black Sea unless they truly believe Russia will just let that fleet sit idly in Sevas for a turn ánd Turkey is willing to hamstring themselves to get their fleet into Constantinople.
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ziran
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#12 Post by ziran » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:37 pm

most games that army isn't getting out of turkey in 1901 anyway. but your point about fleet sev stands. as russia, i am willing to hold it, if i feel i can trust turkey.

Dejan0707
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#13 Post by Dejan0707 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:01 pm

ziran wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:37 pm
most games that army isn't getting out of turkey in 1901 anyway. but your point about fleet sev stands. as russia, i am willing to hold it, if i feel i can trust turkey.
That exactly is the problem. How can you trust someone before even one turn was made? In most of the games you have time to exchange few messages at most with Russia (ehen you are Turkey). All you know is that Russia will for certain make a move that would upset either Austria or Turkey, and good Russia will cover diplomatically both nations.

If Turkey trust Russia and leave BS empty he is giving Russia power to run things instead of doing it himself. If Russia proves trustworthy than sure dmz in BS is best choice, but not on the first move.

Give your neighbour BS is the same as you start racing someone and you shoot yoursef in the foot before race even starts.

Lord of Broken Plains
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#14 Post by Lord of Broken Plains » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:54 am

I suppose the real question is: How does Turkey win a game? Obviously it's quite doable, but with the threat of either Lepanto or being crushed by Russia, combined with starting in that awful corner, makes finding optimal first moves really tricky.

Even Juggernaut doesn't prevent this, as Turkey will almost always be the weaker partner, and must spend the game hyper-aware of being turned on by Russia.

I don't really have a contention here, I'm just reflecting on the challenges of playing Turkey.

A_Tin_Can
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#15 Post by A_Tin_Can » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:58 am

I think all the problems with the lepanto can be avoided by not moving Smy -> Con.

I think all the problems with being attacked by Russia can be avoided by not moving Smy -> Con.

I think all the problems with Austria and Russia trying to play you off against the other can be avoiding by not moving Smy -> Con.

Please, stop moving Smy -> Con.
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Claesar
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#16 Post by Claesar » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:05 am

A_Tin_Can wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:58 am
I think all the problems with the lepanto can be avoided by not moving Smy -> Con.
Could you elaborate? Your plan is to bounce Russia in BLA and then DMZ it in Autumn so you can move ANK-CON?
I think all the problems with being attacked by Russia can be avoided by not moving Smy -> Con.
I presume you propose to open to Armenia instead? That will certainly solve all Russia problems in the short term.
I think all the problems with Austria and Russia trying to play you off against the other can be avoiding by not moving Smy -> Con.
I don't understand what you mean. Could you clarify?
Please, stop moving Smy -> Con.
You have not yet convinced me to do otherwise. Though I will admit that I always consider alternatives in private games. Id est if I'm fairly confident no one will NMR, I don't need Smy -> Con.

jollycream
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#17 Post by jollycream » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:55 pm

I would actually support the claim by A_Tin_Can. The move A Smy-Con gives you an army in Con, that extremely seldom is of any use in fall, whereas it very often blocks a move in Fall of F Ank-Con (with the threat of a build of F Ank if Russia takes Bla, and the promise of F Smy if he doesn't - ie it is a credible move vs Russia) and the real possibility of leaving open Con for a fleet build to force Bla.

I have had quite some success by opening A Smy H. It keeps the threat real vs Russia, but is not as certain in its intent as A Smy-Ank. And vs a lepanto it is quite clear that you can move A Smy-Syr, and F Ank-Con in the fall (or, for that matter, in Spring 1902 by moving your fleets around).
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Claesar
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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#18 Post by Claesar » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:35 pm

jollycream wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:55 pm
...
I have had quite some success by opening A Smy H. It keeps the threat real vs Russia, but is not as certain in its intent as A Smy-Ank. And vs a lepanto it is quite clear that you can move A Smy-Syr, and F Ank-Con in the fall (or, for that matter, in Spring 1902 by moving your fleets around).
When you say Smy-Ank, you mean Smy-Arm?

Smy-Ank seems counterproductive. It threatens Russia in case they were kind enough to let you into BLA.

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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#19 Post by jollycream » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:58 pm

I meant Smy-Arm... Smy-Ank I agree feels pretty useless.

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Re: Make sure you bounce in the Black Sea!

#20 Post by A_Tin_Can » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:26 am

Jollycream has the analysis down pat.

I don’t really like the open to Armenia (it offends Russia, and doesn’t actually give you too much of a jump on them), but I still prefer it to Con. I usually order to Syria or to hold. If you want to work with austria, you can always move to Armenia in the fall.

As Jollycream says, Con gives you a roadblock that reduces your options. Reducing your options is fine if you’re getting something in exchange, but the chance of a second centre is slim- I don’t really feel that it’s a stronger position if you’re still in Con with the army in 1902.

Some of that is about what your next centre is - a lot of the time it is Greece, and that’s usually better taken with a fleet (if you’re allied with Russia or Austria, that’s what they’ll want). It is easier to take Greece with a fleet if Con is not roadblocked.

Perhaps your next centre is one of Rumania or Sev- in that case, Con for the follow up isn’t as strong as Armenia (or Ank for the convoy)- both options give you a better foothold against Russia.

So, assuming that your next centre is one of Rum, Sev or Greece and that you value long term position, I would contend that moving smy to Con is not as strong as essentially any other move.

There’s another advantage in the Diplomacy- if you’re not able to get two builds as Turkey in 1901, no country can involve you in shenanigans like “I will support you to Rum/Greece (etc)”. And, no one is afraid for a four centre turkey in 1902, so you shouldn’t be a lower priority target (unless your press is offensive).

Of course, lots of good players love to Con and see success. Your mileage may vary.
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