God is dead

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phil_a_s
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Re: God is dead

#61 Post by phil_a_s » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 am

People without the right type of ID (but who are nonetheless US citizens) tend to be Democratic voters, yes. This is because they are often black, poor, and/or urban. If you can't afford to keep a car, you won't really need a license. If you live in a city, you might also not need a license, if the public transportation in your city is any good. People who live in cities are several dozen points more Democratic than the national average. Black people overwhelmingly vote Democrat. For more on this, see https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... publicans/
I consider the question of voter ID closed. You are in favor of voter suppression. I will not humor your nonsense about this any further.

I was indeed wrong when I said that Tommy Robinson runs a fascist political party. He used to run one, but doesn't now. He was also a member (though only for a year) of a different fascist political party. While researching Tommy Robinson, I discovered he was arrested for illegally entering the US, which is rather amusing. In any case, what we was engaged in was hate speech, not journalism, and it was correctly held in contempt of court.

Fascism is many things. I recommend reading Umberto Eco's essay "Ur-Fascism" for an idea of what it is. The particular conspiracy theory in question is, in fact, Nazi, but since Nazism is usually taken as a subset of fascism, and in other cases is most often used interchangeably, I contend that I was, in fact, correct.

I imagine you think the conspiracy theories about the Rothschilds were also not anti-Semitic at all. Soros is quite clearly being targeted, in Hungary and around the world, to a significant degree because he is Jewish.

You were very clearly endorsing those values. You said "I'm certain i've missed a few things off", implying that you believe these values are correct, though possibly incomplete. Even your contrary demonstration is toothless. Suddenly it's "some people claim" when there is no such qualifier in your own fascist advocacy.

You promote fascist values, you defend fascist political figures and you promote fascist conspiracy theories.

Ah, so you are a gamergater. Is that how you got into fascism?

How, exactly, are we meant to interpret "We will regret killing our God when invaders bring their own to replace him.", other than as an attack on Muslims?
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CroakandDagger
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Re: God is dead

#62 Post by CroakandDagger » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:34 pm

phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 am
People without the right type of ID (but who are nonetheless US citizens) tend to be Democratic voters, yes. This is because they are often black, poor, and/or urban. If you can't afford to keep a car, you won't really need a license. If you live in a city, you might also not need a license, if the public transportation in your city is any good. People who live in cities are several dozen points more Democratic than the national average. Black people overwhelmingly vote Democrat. For more on this, see https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... publicans/
I consider the question of voter ID closed. You are in favor of voter suppression. I will not humor your nonsense about this any further.
So even if they are not poor or urban, black people are less capable of acquiring ID in your view? That's a bit... racist, honestly.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 am
I was indeed wrong when I said that Tommy Robinson runs a fascist political party. He used to run one, but doesn't now. He was also a member (though only for a year) of a different fascist political party. While researching Tommy Robinson, I discovered he was arrested for illegally entering the US, which is rather amusing. In any case, what we was engaged in was hate speech, not journalism, and it was correctly held in contempt of court.
Well, it's good to see you are at least capable of admitting that you were wrong - even if you continue to perpetuate this false narrative about Tommy not being a journalist. In the years following his departure from the EDL he has become much more professional in his reporting, and generally has been campaigning for things like free speech and equal rights - which I don't think should land him in front of a kangaroo court, denied legal counsel and imprisoned for repeating what was already reported by other press.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 am
Fascism is many things. I recommend reading Umberto Eco's essay "Ur-Fascism" for an idea of what it is. The particular conspiracy theory in question is, in fact, Nazi, but since Nazism is usually taken as a subset of fascism, and in other cases is most often used interchangeably, I contend that I was, in fact, correct.
The fact that lots of people use the term wrongly does not make using the term wrongly correct.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 am
I imagine you think the conspiracy theories about the Rothschilds were also not anti-Semitic at all. Soros is quite clearly being targeted, in Hungary and around the world, to a significant degree because he is Jewish.
That is not the reason. If you suggest that using billions of dollars to lobby governments around the world to permit the inflow of millions of strangers is characteristic of being Jewish then I posit that it's actually you who's being anti-semitic here.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 am
You were very clearly endorsing those values. You said "I'm certain i've missed a few things off", implying that you believe these values are correct, though possibly incomplete. Even your contrary demonstration is toothless. Suddenly it's "some people claim" when there is no such qualifier in your own fascist advocacy.
I was not endorsing those values, though I may agree with one or two of them. If I remember correctly I was providing a short list of what I thought people would be likely to suggest as the duties of government.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 am
You promote fascist values, you defend fascist political figures and you promote fascist conspiracy theories.
No, I do not.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 am
Ah, so you are a gamergater.
No, I am not.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 am
Is that how you got into fascism?
I am not a fascist.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:13 am
How, exactly, are we meant to interpret "We will regret killing our God when invaders bring their own to replace him.", other than as an attack on Muslims?
Alright - since you genuinely seem not to misunderstood here, I will explain.

European society has been largely built on the moral framework of Christianity - but Christianity is not just the basis of our laws, it was a great tool with which to promote social cohesion and a way to chart a course to the future. As religion fades into irrelevancy in the Western mindset we lose our sense of unity and we become intelligent apes flailing in the dark for meaning and purpose.

Now, I am not saying that an intelligent person cannot find meaning and purpose in a world devoid of spirituality - I am agnostic myself - but I am saying that it can be difficult for a person who is not intelligent to grasp why a society is necessary and good without the bevy of easy answers that Religion (And to a lesser extent, Nationalism) always provided in the past. This promotes the kind of self-indulgent individualism that an amateur objectivist might advocate - and the decay that comes of being hedonistically self-serving.

In short; in the absence of a universal moral framework society is divided - and a divided society is a weak society. A society that still has a kind of unifying philosophy will triumph over one that is divided against itself. These are the theoretical invaders I describe.

If you believe that we are being invaded by muslims then I suppose it could be interpreted as Islamophobic.

If you believe that significant portions of the body politic are being seduced by the universalism of fascism then it could also be interpreted as anti-fascist.
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phil_a_s
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Re: God is dead

#63 Post by phil_a_s » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:18 pm

So, let's see, there's one "you acknowledge the existence of racism, doesn't that make you the true racist", followed by lies. I do not consider these to be worth responding to.

An interesting lack of comprehension of what language is follows, in the conviction that the word "fascist" means whatever CroakandDagger wants it to mean at any given point (in this case, it happens to mean the one core aspect of fascism that CroakandDagger is not on record as promoting here, at least in his last 60 or so posts), and not what politologists or the general public mean by the word.

Next, another blatant lie. I do not know your intent at the time, but I do know your phrasing. You were establishing those values as fundamental.

CroakandDagger is not a gamergater but also thinks it was about ethics in video game journalism. In other words, CroakandDagger is a gamergater, but recognizes that label is toxic, kind of like the label fascist is toxic.

Some nonsense amateur anthropology, with a social darwinist bent to it, a curious omission of enlightenment values, a belief in human rights, or the fundamental dignity of mankind as potential ways to keep a society together. Surely the idea that other people deserve the same dignity as we do is an easier idea to swallow than some absent yet somehow important God, or a vague concept of "nation"?

Those invaders you speak of were not theoretical. Everywhere on this site you express paranoia about Islam, specifically the existence of Muslims in Europe, but suddenly you had no religion in mind when you wrote that. Sure.

I invite you all to read https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/. Then, if you feel up to it, read CroakandDagger's post history, and see how it fits.

I write all of this not in an attempt to convince CroakandDagger. He cannot be helped unless he wants help, which he does not. I write this so that none of you fall for his nonsense. The only way to fight crypto-fascists is by revealing them.
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CroakandDagger
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Re: God is dead

#64 Post by CroakandDagger » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:25 pm

I do not have the time to reply in depth right this moment, but I will unpack this latest delivery of disingenuous drivel when I return.

In the meantime, only this:
Not once have I ever expressed any paranoid sentiments about Islam.

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Re: God is dead

#65 Post by phil_a_s » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:10 pm

search.php?keywords=Islam+Muslims&terms ... mit=Search

Thanks for the highly modular search function, mods and/or phpBB3 devs.

I will not bring up any individual post, except to preempt the defense and say that the "jokes" contain Islamophobia as a component, and not a target. Some of the other comments are truly horrifying, and I fear I would be breaking several forum rules just by citing or arguing them, so I will not.

I do not think I am breaking forum rules as written by describing you as a fascist, but I am afraid I may have broken some when I was countering your arguments as to why you are not. I'm afraid Politics is a bit of a vague term, and it seems rather like this thread was miscategorized. If I post in this thread again, I will take greater care to avoid political conversation.
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CroakandDagger
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Re: God is dead

#66 Post by CroakandDagger » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:06 pm

phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:18 pm
So, let's see, there's one "you acknowledge the existence of racism, doesn't that make you the true racist", followed by lies. I do not consider these to be worth responding to.
This is disingenuous. I did not accuse you of acknowledging racism and therefore being racist, I accused you of stating flat out that black people have a harder time registering to vote.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:18 pm
An interesting lack of comprehension of what language is follows, in the conviction that the word "fascist" means whatever CroakandDagger wants it to mean at any given point (in this case, it happens to mean the one core aspect of fascism that CroakandDagger is not on record as promoting here, at least in his last 60 or so posts), and not what politologists or the general public mean by the word.
This is disingenuous. It's true that in language words often take on broader meanings - and fascism's umbrella has spread in daily conversation to mean "anybody who is not a socialist" thanks to the far-left using it to slander anybody who disagrees with them (see: this thread). Personally I think this is too broad and use it to refer to authoritarianism, totalitarianism, and things of that ilk. It is not entirely accurate - but it seems to be what the general public understands to be fascism's definition.

I am not a fascist.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:18 pm
Next, another blatant lie. I do not know your intent at the time, but I do know your phrasing. You were establishing those values as fundamental.
This is disingenuous. I don't perfectly remember the thread in question, but I am fairly confident I was giving a broad selection of guiding principles that people from any stripe of life might potentially have in order to start a conversation about how well modern governments serve their people.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:18 pm
CroakandDagger is not a gamergater but also thinks it was about ethics in video game journalism. In other words, CroakandDagger is a gamergater, but recognizes that label is toxic, kind of like the label fascist is toxic.
This is disingenuous. You do not know my life - and I am not and never have been a "gamergater" - however, a very good friend of mine closely followed the entire thing and when she and I would meet up for a meal they would often vent to me about how smug twats would keep slandering a movement that was fundamentally anti-corruption as "misogynist" just because the flashpoint that began the whole fiasco was caused by a woman sleeping with journalists for positive reviews.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:18 pm
Some nonsense amateur anthropology, with a social darwinist bent to it, a curious omission of enlightenment values, a belief in human rights, or the fundamental dignity of mankind as potential ways to keep a society together. Surely the idea that other people deserve the same dignity as we do is an easier idea to swallow than some absent yet somehow important God, or a vague concept of "nation"?
Now here you happily gloss over my what I thought was a well-reasoned argument in favour of some shallow point-scoring, posting what equates to a thinking face emoji under a heartfelt attempt to explain what I meant and seriously engage in debate about the subject of the thread.

Enlightenment values and the rights of man are fine ideals, but even you must admit that they do not intrinsically have the power to hold a society together the same way that shared worship or patriotism do - and I say this as someone who has no particular affection for organised worship.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:18 pm
I invite you all to read https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/. Then, if you feel up to it, read CroakandDagger's post history, and see how it fits.
An interesting read. Thank you.

If you were likely to listen I would go through the fourteen points of their conclusion and how they do not relate to me as you seem to think - but I somehow suspect that would be a waste of time.
phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:18 pm
I write all of this not in an attempt to convince CroakandDagger. He cannot be helped unless he wants help, which he does not. I write this so that none of you fall for his nonsense. The only way to fight crypto-fascists is by revealing them.
You are thoroughly unpleasant and condescending.

I am not a fascist, "crypto-" or otherwise.
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phil_a_s
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Re: God is dead

#67 Post by phil_a_s » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:08 pm

Every one of CroakandDagger's refutations is based on a lie and/or a thorough acceptance of fascist rhetoric, and most likely ideology. I am not surprised that a fascist is incapable of understanding (or at least unwilling to understand) how Ur-Fascism applies to them. Fascists are recruited from among people who can't recognize fascism when it's presented to them. I have nothing further to say on this.
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CroakandDagger
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Re: God is dead

#68 Post by CroakandDagger » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:21 pm

Gee, I wonder why I thought taking the time to explain in more detail would have been a waste of time.
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peterlund
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Re: God is dead

#69 Post by peterlund » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:01 pm

Everyone, just add CroakandDagger to your Foe list and ignore all his messages like I do.

It is disturbing when his entrance to a thread completely destroys that thread...
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Ogion
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Re: God is dead

#70 Post by Ogion » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:44 pm

ubercacher16 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:30 pm
You really honestly believe that we evolved emotion? You think we have a sense of right and wrong because it's in our DNA?
Um. Yeah. that's been pretty clearly established in game theory analyses of evolution that our sense of right and wrong are largely derived from empathy, which has a fairly solid adaptive basis. I didn't think this was even a question still.
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Re: God is dead

#71 Post by Ogion » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:46 pm

Goronman wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:47 am
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little shit? Ill have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and Ive been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and Im the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. Youre fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and thats just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little clever comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldnt, you didnt, and now youre paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. Youre fucking dead, kiddo.

My goodness. Parody appears to not be a dead art after all.
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Crazy Anglican
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Re: God is dead

#72 Post by Crazy Anglican » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:38 pm

Ogion wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:44 pm
Um. Yeah. that's been pretty clearly established in game theory analyses of evolution that our sense of right and wrong are largely derived from empathy, which has a fairly solid adaptive basis. I didn't think this was even a question still.
Having driven on interstates in Atlanta it seems that being a selfish prick has a solid evolutionary basis too. If I am hard wired to be both an empathetic nice guy and an antisocial jerk it would seem to indicate a choice as to which base desire to adhere to in any given situation. I mean my kids will tell you that I curse quite fluently while playing Star Wars Battlefront (a habit I am remediating). If there is any room for choice then there is room for societal constructs (religion, the legal system, the education system) to inform and influence those choices. That is simply my layman’s interpretation of what I have read. it is mainly a locus of control discussion, but I do not see a middle ground between religion being a factor that informs decision making or religion being an irrelevant factor within a bunch of automatons that have no free will at all and are simply carrying out our their evolutionary programs.

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Re: God is dead

#73 Post by MattyofG » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:56 pm

phil_a_s wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:08 pm
Every one of CroakandDagger's refutations is based on a lie and/or a thorough acceptance of fascist rhetoric, and most likely ideology. I am not surprised that a fascist is incapable of understanding (or at least unwilling to understand) how Ur-Fascism applies to them. Fascists are recruited from among people who can't recognize fascism when it's presented to them. I have nothing further to say on this.
Yeah, we know. He's coded most of his responses so they seem more reasonable, but he's not fooling anyone familiar with this junk.

You also have to remember that the arguments that come from the groups he represents are specifically targeted to not well off white males, so if you come from a different socioeconomic group it can sometimes be a little harder to pick up on it. I loved it when he tried to call you racist for pointing out that minorities have a harder time getting IDs. Classic.
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CroakandDagger
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Re: God is dead

#74 Post by CroakandDagger » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:24 pm

Everyone with maybe half a working brain can get ID. Kids manage it for fuck's sake.
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Re: God is dead

#75 Post by MajorMitchell » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:41 pm

Dearest Ogion. I think there might be subtle, and not so subtle differences between parody & delusional, offensive rants. I just offer that as a helpful suggestion..
. Gosh I'm so slow.
Was it your comment that "Parody appears not to be a dead art" that was of itself a piece of clever parody ?
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Re: God is dead

#76 Post by MajorMitchell » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:05 pm

Oh there was an earlier discussion about the popularity of religious beliefs and the suggestion that the health status of God ( alive / dead ) could be linked to a rise or fall in the popularity of belief in God.
I wanted to make the comparison with popularity of belief in Horoscopes. The consumption of & belief in Horoscope​ predictions has been increasing. To argue that the validity of horoscopes is improved by increased public consumption and belief in them, I would suggest is risible. Can the same be said of Gods ? They exist, or do not exist irrespective of whether they have worshiping acolytes ? Or is the existence of Gods dependent of numbers of worshiping acolytes ?
Humans once thought our Moon and planets in our solar system were Gods & was/is their existence divine form linked to numbers of worshiping adherents ? Is there a minimum number of worshippers required for a Deities or Gods existence ? Are there rankings based on popularity.
The Christian Heaven is divided in various class structures to accommodate the aristocratic classes in Eternity. There are Dominions & Principalities in the Christian Heaven as an example. I'm not up on the intricacies of it all, that's the sort of knowledge required of Mitred Bishops & Cardinals, not your common "afore the mast" sinners like me.

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Re: God is dead

#77 Post by MajorMitchell » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:28 pm

"We will regret killing our God when invaders bring their God to replace him"
An interesting proposition, imho. Firstly it assigns a sexual gender to "our God" .. rather stunning level of arrogant assumption imho, in at least two ways, firstly the assumption of masculine gender, and secondly the assumption of uniformity in adherence to a single God by all members of this rather vague, undefined group "us".

A further assumption is that the group "us" will, when confronted by the newly arrived worshipping adherents of a different God to the one they rejected, feel some sort of desire to recall their God back into existence.

I think it's far more likely that the "us" group will regard these new worshipping adherents as "rustic simpletons", or "a bunch of muppets deluded & exploited by their priests"

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Re: God is dead

#78 Post by MajorMitchell » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:34 pm

Perhaps a significant number of the newly arrived worshipping adherents of a different God will see the opportunities that freedom from adherence to a set of religious beliefs and particular God offer them, and dismiss their God as a quaint irrelevancy. Joining the "us" group in heretical disbelief in unnecessary Gods.

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Re: God is dead

#79 Post by MattyofG » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:38 pm

CroakandDagger wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:24 pm
Everyone with maybe half a working brain can get ID. Kids manage it for fuck's sake.
I needed like 17 pieces of paper to get mine. It is unnecessarily difficult.

You need 2 pieces of mail, but not just any mail, it has to be mail from one of these twenty groups, financial stuff, some government agencies but not others. Then you need your passport, social security card or you're actual birth certificate, pick two of the three for some reason. On top of it, my state didn't update their online guide so the information I got the first time was wrong, so I had to go back to the DMV a second time, super fun let me tell you. Had to take two mornings off work, which fortunately is easy for me as I have flexible hours. If you don't have flexible hours you could be choosing between an ID and rent for the month.

If IDs were actually simple to get, like it was just wandering over to the corner store and picking them up, I'd be much more sympathetic. Your point has been refuted. I wish you good day and have a pleasant tomorrow.
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Re: God is dead

#80 Post by CroakandDagger » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:01 pm

Yes, bureaucracy is out of control; but that does not change the fact that our good friend Phil denigrated the intellectual capacity of black people and then tried to weasel out of it once they realised what they'd let slip.
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