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Worst starting country in classic Diplomacy? I'm starting this thread to ignite discussion about the class diplomacy map. Highly experienced players I please ask for an opinion to help out us more casual people.

Russia is a difficult start. Russia has 4 SCs, but it is really two weak 2 SC countries, one north, one south. It is easy to deny Russia a build in year one. ("Weak" Austria can guarantee a build with the Southern Hedgehog opening, and Italy always gets Tun) Even if Russia manages to get a juggernaut rolling, Russia is often stabbed by the Turk. Russia needs good diplomacy for a strong start.

Austria is the most likely to get steamrolled and eliminated after just a few turns.

Italy has the worst long-term prospects for actually winning.

In terms of pure stats (https://diplom.org/Zine/F2006M/Burton/DP_F2006M_best_powers.htm):

Italy and Austria are the hardest to play overall. Russia is very hard to play in gunboat (having to defend against 4 different countries on both sides of the stalemate line), but in a press game this is offset and so Russia becomes one of the easier nations instead of one of the hardest. Germany is the third-hardest country in a full-press game, but in gunboat is one of the easier ones.

Traditional wisdom is Russia in gunboat and Italy in press.

In this site’s current meta, wouldn’t surprise me if it were England in both.

You may find the stats on Vdip might be interesting:

https://www.vdiplomacy.com/stats.php?variantID=106&variantID=1

By these measures, Austria looks like the worst starting country.

My least favourite country to play is Russia.

My favourite country to play is Austria, because if you survive relatively intact into the mid-game, the fact that your builds are in the centre of the map can be really powerful.

Disclaimer: I mainly play virtual face to face and face to face events and I'm okay in both formats - I've won one tournament, but no other noteworthy results - and I don't play a lot of press and gunboat, so I'm used to time limited games.

What's the worst starting country depends largely on the meta and what's your criterium for doing well/poorly. If you're looking at eliminations for example, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is Austria and if you're looking for board tops and/or solo's, I'd be shocked if the answer was Austria.

So, on top boards, Turkey is historically picked last most often and while its results on top boards are below average, we don't know whether that is because Turkey is a bad country or because the players that get to play Turkey are typically worse than the players that get to play France.

Now, if we do a thought experiment where every power plays perfectly, we probably get a balanced and slow position, because to every alliance another alliance will be created to respond, so choosing an alliance first is probably not the way to go against perfect players. In these balanced and slow positions, who's weakest?

Turkey and England, for Turkey has no easy way of getting out of the box against perfect opponent and can easily be stuck at 3/4 centers all game and England because they're tactical position is just so weak when sitting at 3/4 centers that they can go down to 0 at any point.

Tl;dr Probably Turkey

In FTF, I think Austria is the worst. It is just so common, it is routine for everyone to pile on Austria. I just did a FTF tournament. In my three games, Austria never made it 4 years. The other guys who were eliminated in those three games were the German twice, and the Russian once, but the Russian didn't play well

From best to worst:
Gunboat: France, Germany, England, Austria, Italy, Russia, Turkey
Press: France, Turkey, England, Germany, Russia, Italy, Austria
France is arguably the best across both versions, while Russia, Italy, and Austria are hard to play, due to how many potential enemies Russia and Austria have and how ridiculously hard it is to do anything from Italy's starting centers.

Generally whichever one I'm in. As soon as I draw a country, all its weaknesses become all too obvious.

Diplomacy&Warfare wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:04 pm

From best to worst:
Gunboat: France, Germany, England, Austria, Italy, Russia, Turkey
Press: France, Turkey, England, Germany, Russia, Italy, Austria
France is arguably the best across both versions, while Russia, Italy, and Austria are hard to play, due to how many potential enemies Russia and Austria have and how ridiculously hard it is to do anything from Italy's starting centers.

I can't believe you put Turkey at the bottom of Gunboat! I think they're number 2, behind France! You open with the Crusher, and you punched a ticket to 6 centers. You open against Austria, either Russia or Italy will help you out. If it all goes badly, you can even hold out in Anatolia for turns and turns and turns, forcing Austria and Italy to cooperate perfectly and commit a lot of units to breaking what I call "The Turkish Turtle"

I can't believe you put Turkey at the bottom of Gunboat! I think they're number 2, behind France! You open with the Crusher, and you punched a ticket to 6 centers. You open against Austria, either Russia or Italy will help you out. If it all goes badly, you can even hold out in Anatolia for turns and turns and turns, forcing Austria and Italy to cooperate perfectly and commit a lot of units to breaking what I call "The Turkish Turtle"
[/quote]

Can you please explain what is the crusher opening for turkey?

[email protected] wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 28, 2024 3:43 pm

Can you please explain what is the crusher opening for turkey?

I think he's referring to Turkey's Spring 1901 orders of Con-Bul, Ank-BLA, Smy-Arm, which I believe is colloquially known as the "Crimean Crusher".

This article (https://brotherbored.com/tier-list-for-gunboat-diplomacy/) makes interesting arguments as to why Turkey is powerful in gunboat. Dip & War, I would be curious to hear the reasons why you ranked Turkey last.

I most dislike playing as England since it's difficult to expand without horribly stabbing an ally, which limits my diplomatic options. I also consider it difficult to play Italy given that Italy can't really stab anybody early in the game without dangerously exposing themselves to another Great Power (and for the slim pickings of just one or two supply centers at that). I'd say that Germany is the third-hardest country to play given that it's easiest to cut out of the Western Triple, but its position along the standard SW-NE stalemate line and easy access to neutral supply centers makes it easier to survive a 2:1 battle until help arrives from the East. Against conventional wisdom, I actually find it most enjoyable to play as Austria-Hungary and Russia.

DougJoe wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:08 pm

[email protected] wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 28, 2024 3:43 pm

Can you please explain what is the crusher opening for turkey?

I think he's referring to Turkey's Spring 1901 orders of Con-Bul, Ank-BLA, Smy-Arm, which I believe is colloquially known as the "Crimean Crusher".

This article (https://brotherbored.com/tier-list-for-gunboat-diplomacy/) makes interesting arguments as to why Turkey is powerful in gunboat. Dip & War, I would be curious to hear the reasons why you ranked Turkey last.

Nice nickname, I am now "Dip & War".
Turkey is hard to kill, but they start the game stuck in a corner and must either kill Austria or Russia to get out of said corner. This requires allies because there are literally not enough provinces to attack from because you are cramped in a corner, while allies are functionally nonexistent in gunboat. The crusher is somewhat strong, but if Italy Lepantos you are dead, while if Russia maintains basic precautions such as not letting you into the Black Sea (which you can't negotiate yourself into because it's gunboat and having a unit in Ukr, you will gain nothing and have already made an enemy of Russia.
Finally, even when Turkey kills Russia and Austria, getting units out far enough to fight Germany and Italy takes multiple years due to Turkey being in a corner. Generally, the best Turkey can do in most games is draw with Italy and a western power, or two western powers. But, wait, draws can't be requested because THERE'S NO CHAT IN GUNBOAT.

@Diplomacy&Warfare - what? If you're the kind who is patient enough for long, drawn-out games, Turkey is your dream country. If you open with F Ank-Con, A Con-Bul, A Smy H, 90% of the time Russia will get what you're doing and help you attack Austria. Or if you're paranoid, you can open Ank-Bla, Con-Bul, Smy-Con and when Russia orders Sev S Ukr-Rum, innocently move Ank to Con. Even if you decide you want to bounce Russia in BLA until you can build a second fleet in Con, you are 99% assured of getting a build in 1901, two if Austria makes the wrong opening. Making the build a fleet in Smyrna (which FYI you should always do as Turkey) makes you almost completely Lepanto-proof, and if you keep Bulgaria, you'll look like less of a target to Italy than France or Austria. Even while being menaced by Austria, Italy, and Russia, Turkey can still usually make it into a draw with as few as 3 supply centers. This is especially true in games with experienced players: both of the biggest-bet games ever played had Turkey limp into the draw on 5: a gem in DSS. And if you're willing to play out a game until 1920 and grow early, you have a good shot at a solo. In my mind, Turkey is second only to France.

From the game's designer (although that doesn't mean it's automatically true):
https://diplomacyzines.co.uk/strategy-tactics/articles-by-alan-b-calhamer/across-the-whole-board/

"As Diplomacy progressed from its initial form to its final market form, it was played frequently by a group of good players who steadily progressed in their understanding of the game against steadily improving opponents. The strength of the countries as determined by experience within this group ran from Turkey at the strongest down through Britain, France, Italy, Russia, Austria-Hungary, and lastly, Germany. We note the close correspondence of that list to the list of countries in reverse order of the number of neighbours, as read off the network: Turkey, 2; England, France and Italy, 3; Russia and Austria-Hungary, 4; Germany 5."

CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:18 am

From the game's designer (although that doesn't mean it's automatically true):
https://diplomacyzines.co.uk/strategy-tactics/articles-by-alan-b-calhamer/across-the-whole-board/

"As Diplomacy progressed from its initial form to its final market form, it was played frequently by a group of good players who steadily progressed in their understanding of the game against steadily improving opponents. The strength of the countries as determined by experience within this group ran from Turkey at the strongest down through Britain, France, Italy, Russia, Austria-Hungary, and lastly, Germany. We note the close correspondence of that list to the list of countries in reverse order of the number of neighbours, as read off the network: Turkey, 2; England, France and Italy, 3; Russia and Austria-Hungary, 4; Germany 5."

True, but was Alan Calhamer considering terrain when he wrote this?

Due to Germany encompassing multiple different climates, its geography allows it to support multiple different industries, allowing it to get an early game advantage in its economy. Although terrain is important, it is key to remember the economical implications of other countries.