A rant about Reliability Rating

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jmo1121109
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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#21 Post by jmo1121109 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:23 pm

AGuy27 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:22 pm
Hey. This is the first post I've made on the forum. And it's a rant.

The Reliability Rating system is overly harsh and ridiculous. I got banned from creating or joining any new games for 2 days. You know what I did to deserve that?

I WENT TO SLEEP.

I'm not sure if the developers are aware of this, but there are these things people have called lives, and mine isn't going to be spent checking this website 24/7. If you go offline for 1 or 2 days, you will get kicked from a large chunk of your games, get banned for a few days, and completely tank your Reliability Rating. What kind of trash system is this?


And before you say "Oh, missed turns lose their effect on your RR in a year, so you can just wait until 2021, and then you'll be able to join games again!" NO! I'm not going to wait a year so I can play Diplomacy!

And what's worse is, once you can join games again, you still won't be able to because people's reliability requirements are so off-the-charts that you'll never be able to join them until you join other games, but oh wait, you can't join any games because you have to have a higher reliability rating to join games, which you can only get by joining games, or waiting for a year.

There are many reasons people can't be online 24/7. These include:
Having a job.
School.
Going offline for Earth Day.
Getting grounded.
Going camping or on vacation.
Having hobbies.
Having a life.

I'm on summer break, so obviously school or work isn't a problem. The problem is the RR system. Punishing people for not being able to be online 24/7 is absolutely ridiculous, but it can be fixed. Here's how:

1. Reduce the effect. Having my RR go down 5% for a YEAR is ridiculously over-the-top. This can add up very quickly, and I'm not waiting until 2021 just to be able to join a game of Diplomacy, especially knowing it'll just happen again next year.
2. The system used for live games is fine, why not use it for everything?
3. You should only get a temporary ban from games if your RR goes really low, not every single week.

TLDR: The RR system sucks, tone it down a bit, people have lives and can't check the website 24/7.
It always makes me happy to see RR doing exactly what I wanted it to do. Blocking people who see no problem with wrecking games for everyone from playing. We have excused missed turns as an option in games, and 3 free excuses, you do not just get kicked from all your games for going to sleep so lets not get lying here. You have missed moves in your games on 10 different days. We also have a friendly moderator team you can talk to who is willing to work with you on getting your RR to a better spot. That same team is also around for emergency pauses for anyone who finds out they won't have time for their games.
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Tom Bombadil
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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#22 Post by Tom Bombadil » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:25 pm

I’ve never seen the webdip community so united. It is possible!
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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#23 Post by MajorMitchell » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:17 am

Well Tom you know I will be a dissident voice because you've seen me put a powerful Russia into effective civil disorder when you had Germany and after a long alliance with me you stabbed Russia.
I both like & dislike unreliability. It's annoying at times because it messes with my goals, but I love it for the extra anarchy factor. I loved it in the 17 player World variant.
Just because there's no actual bloodshed or carnage this game is a simulacrum for war, conquest etc.
Whilst I agree with the principle that a player should do what they perceive to be the best interests of the nation they have, I also believe all players have the right to put their nation into Civil Disorder at any stage without penalty.
I'm noticing that quite often players drop out of games in spring 01 because, presumably they didn't like the country they got given. Just picked up forty odd luvverly webdiplomacy points from picking up a free England in spring 01 and I then picked up Italy and that many players left, came & left we had a draw & I got another 15 luvverly webdiplomacy points.
We're unreliable creatures and wonderfully diverse, so I'm a dissenter to your monolithic vision of webdiplomacy community opinion on this Tom.

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#24 Post by MajorMitchell » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:26 am

Got that Italy in spring 01 & so many players left came left in first two years it was ludicrous.. so an easy draw & move on.with a few extra free luvverly webdiplomacy points in the kitbag.
Anarchy because if random unreliability delivers surprise and opportunities.. there's variants that seek to enhance that feature.. Fog of War as one example

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#25 Post by gimix » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:37 am

No, M-M, i can see your point and even agree with you to some extent; but even if, once in a lifetime, you should put your country in CD, you would do it "strategically". Btw, your RR is 100% :-)
The case here is quite different, i just had a look at game: 24 hours/phase, 2 excused misses, and the OP didn't reach 1904 - it's 3 NMR's in 9 turns.
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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#26 Post by Tom Bombadil » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:08 pm

That game is basically 4 years old Major. Let it go.

But, yes - I tend to agree with the masses that it’s pretty inconsiderate to other players to just quit a game. At least put the effort into finding a replacement.

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#27 Post by Simonv121 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:33 pm

I've just finished a game where a player went into CD, but then rejoined and proceeded to not engage in press and hold each turn until destroyed. Even missed a few more turns after the original CD.

Very annoying, and he can't understand why we were annoyed.

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#28 Post by VillageIdiot » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:36 am

I would have swore players weren’t able to rejoin games they were removed from. Is that not the case?

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#29 Post by Mercy » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:54 am

It has always been the case that if you went into Civil Disorder but you go to the page of the game you were playing before anyone takes over, you are back in the game.

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#30 Post by Longneck » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:49 am

Hi all. While I generally agree that OP shouldn't join games he can't keep up with, I would like to point out the effect just one or two missed turns can have. According to my profile, I have missed one turn out of 1909, but my RR is 95%. And that's for a YEAR PER GAME? Luckily I didn't sleep in when more deadlines were looming. The punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime to me. There have been games I couldn't join because of that. I know, I know... follow the rules. But real life does intrude occasionally. It would be nice if that could be accounted for somehow. A lot of places waive traffic tickets if there are no others within a certain time period, so maybe reduce the RR penalty or time if there are no other missed deadlines? Perhaps take into account their previous RR or recent misses versus on time orders? Just sayin'... peace out.

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#31 Post by MajorMitchell » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:55 am

Consistent with my views on Civil Disorder as a feature of the game deliberately included by original designers I have thought for many years that there should be a much simpler way for players to put their nation into Civil Disorder & it be immediately available in Open Games for a new player & occasionally suggested it in forum posts.
There are alternatives to going the standard clumsy way of not putting in orders (and not opening game up to look at it if that still induces further delay).. what are de facto forms of Civil Disorder.. the Kamikaze attack or crazy moves.. playing dead.. one unit makes a retreat move & others hold, so it's not all holds/NMR because one token move is made..every retreat option is a disband regardless, so even when a retreat option is available, the unit is disbanded.. .
I took a massive hit to my Reliability Rating about a year ago, so I stopped playing here for more than six months, played odd games at VDip & PlayDiplomacy sites & F2F with old Dipcomrades.
I kept up my forum involvement and when.i eventually saw the lapse of some penalties and significant improvement to my RR I then started playing again here and had my first exploration of playing against the Dalek Bots.and those games, or expiration of penalties has me back at 100% which is in my opinion a Risible RR.
I can assure readers that the Supreme Authority who knows me best, my Wonderful Fire Breathing Mem Sahib Her Serene Imperiousness Indoors has a significantly different assessment of my Reliability Rating.

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#32 Post by VillageIdiot » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:01 am

Longneck wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:49 am
Hi all. While I generally agree that OP shouldn't join games he can't keep up with, I would like to point out the effect just one or two missed turns can have. According to my profile, I have missed one turn out of 1909, but my RR is 95%. And that's for a YEAR PER GAME? Luckily I didn't sleep in when more deadlines were looming. The punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime to me. There have been games I couldn't join because of that. I know, I know... follow the rules. But real life does intrude occasionally. It would be nice if that could be accounted for somehow. A lot of places waive traffic tickets if there are no others within a certain time period, so maybe reduce the RR penalty or time if there are no other missed deadlines? Perhaps take into account their previous RR or recent misses versus on time orders? Just sayin'... peace out.
I don’t see that many games that aren't accommodating for a 95% reliability. I’ve had the occasional whoopsie myself and have never hit a wall of not being able to enter a game. Fairly reliable has fairly good accessibility to games and fairly unreliable has fairly okay accessibility to games.

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#33 Post by Squigs44 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:46 am

Yeah the default RR setting for games is 80% (obviously lower if the creators RR is below 80), and rarely do people raise that, especially not past 95%. You shouldn't be missing out much from a single 5% penalty.

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#34 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:25 am

I do want to correct a couple misconceptions. The number on your profile is the number of unexcused missed turns, that does not include missed turns that had system excuses left in the game. @longneck, you had a couple excused missed turns before your unexcused one. Even then, it's a 5% dock and a warning for the first 3 you have.

If you are in 30 games and you sleep in and miss all 30 cause they all processed within a couple hours of each other this is what happens. You get charged for 1 unexcused missed turn. Just 1. The rest will show "Same Period Excused:" = Yes on the RR breakdown page. You can only be charged for 1 in a 24 hour period (live games might be different, not sure how I did that logic, I'll check later). So you go from 100% to 95%. And then if you follow up and email the mods there's a good chance they'll clear that one for you if you have a good record.

It is overall pretty difficult in this system to get to a point where you cannot play anymore and the mods will not give you more chances. Once you've reached that point you're pretty much wrecking games for other people and shouldn't be playing anyway.

"I would have swore players weren’t able to rejoin games they were removed from. Is that not the case?"

If you are out of excused missed turns and miss a turn you are removed from the game. If you have one of your 3 yearly passes available the system does not temporarily ban you and you can rejoin your game. You can do this up to 4 times in a game before you're be temporarily banned which prevents retaking a position for 24 hours. The following year it is impossible for you to do so again, missing a turn will instantly give you a more severe temporary ban until at 9 of them you're temporary banned for a year.

The full info from the breakdown page: (mine is used in this example)
Reliability is how consistently you avoid interrupting games. Any un-excused missed turns hurt your rating. If you have any un-excused missed turns in the last 4 weeks you will receive an 11% penalty to your RR for each of those delays. It is very important to everyone you are playing with to be reliable but we understand mistakes happen so this extra penalty will drop to 5% after 28 days. All of the un-excused missed turns that negatively impact your rating are highlighted in red below. Excused delays will only negatively impact your base score, seen below. Mod excused delays do not hurt your score in any way.

Live Game: If a game had phases 60 minutes long or less any excused missed turns will only impact your rating for 28 days total. The penalty is the same, 5% long term and 6% short term, except the long term penalty is for 28 days and the short term is for 7 days.
System Excused: If you had an "excused missed turn" left this will be yes and will not cause additional penalties against your rating.
Mod Excused: If a moderator excused the missed turn this field will be yes and will not cause additional penalties against your rating.
Same Period Excused: If you have multiple un-excused missed turns in a 24 hour period you are only penalized once with the exception of live games, if this field is yes it will not cause additional penalties against your rating.

Many games are made with a minimum rating requirement so this may impact the quality of games you can enter. If you have more then 3 non-live un-excused missed turns in a year you will begin getting temporarily banned from making new games, joining existing games, or rejoining your own games.

1-3 un-excused delays: warnings
4 un-excused delays: 1-day temp ban
5 un-excused delays: 3-day temp ban
6 un-excused delays: 7-day temp ban
7 un-excused delays: 14-day temp ban
8 un-excused delays: 30-day temp ban
9 or more un-excused delays: infinite, must contact mods for removal

Live game excused turns are penalized independently for temporary bans. 1-2 un-excused missed turns in live games will be a warning, and the 3rd, and any after that will result in a 24 hour temp ban. The 2 warnings reset every 28 days resulting in significantly more yearly warnings for live game players then the normal system.

Factors Impacting RR:
Yearly Turns: 198
Total Counted Missed Turns: 0

Base Percentage: 100%
(100* (1 - Yearly Missed Turns/Yearly Turns))

Added Penalties:
Yearly Unexcused Missed Turns: 0 for a penalty of 0%
Recent Unexcused Missed Turns: 0 for a penalty of 0%
Total:
Reliability Rating: 100
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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#35 Post by Claesar » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:00 am

Simonv121 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:33 pm
I've just finished a game where a player went into CD, but then rejoined and proceeded to not engage in press and hold each turn until destroyed. Even missed a few more turns after the original CD.

Very annoying, and he can't understand why we were annoyed.
Please email us when this happens and we may be able to arbiter individual cases . Except that we're swamped with work currently as the site traffic has quadrupled.
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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#36 Post by Simonv121 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:08 am

Claesar wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:00 am
Please email us when this happens and we may be able to arbiter individual cases . Except that we're swamped with work currently as the site traffic has quadrupled.
Thanks. That's helpful to know. If he wasn't so near being defeated anyway, we would have done.

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#37 Post by Longneck » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:06 pm

Thanks for clarifying about missing multiple games. And, as some remarked, I haven't been barred from many games, I just mentioned that it does happen occasionally.

I would still urge a lighter penalty or quicker restoration for the rare miss, but understand there might be higher priority projects. Thanks again.

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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#38 Post by TomareUtsuZo » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:06 pm

So, the OP is getting ready to CD in one of my games (I am inclined to think on that he started?)
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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#39 Post by Diplomaster4 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:59 pm

RoganJosh wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:05 pm
Maybe you should spend this time submitting orders to those two "Beginners Only" games you are playing, instead of ranting on the forum.

You know that you can submit preliminary orders, right?

Btw, every time you fail to submit orders, you ruin the game for the other six players. I think you should ask yourself, why would anyone want to play with you, when you ruin the games?
Yeah you could start by replying to my Press in the beginner's game
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Re: A rant about Reliability Rating

#40 Post by Jamiet99uk » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:40 pm

Do not talk about ongoing games on the forum.

(I'm sure that used to be a rule?)
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