The truth about the new forum

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Octavious
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#61 Post by Octavious » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:59 am

I am eager to learn more about the successes of the current forum, however. One of the big selling points was regarding attracting a larger female playing base, which is undoubtedly a good thing.

So what were the typical numbers of active female members before the changes, and what are the typical numbers of active female members now?
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#62 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:31 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:18 am
flash2015 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:29 am
I guess it somewhat depends what time of community we want here - a community which mainly plays dip but has an attached forum...or a web forum where people occasionally play dip too.
No it doesn't. That's just how people like to frame the argument when they want to limit the forum.

The problem diplomacy has is that many diplomacy players have something of a love / hate relationship with it.

Typically someone will find the game, play it a couple of times, and discover they love it. Then they join a lot of games and play it obsessively for a while, and get quite good at it. Then they realise quite how much time it's eating up, and because the games last a couple of months they can't escape, and they start to resent the damned thing. They play their games reluctantly, or simply CD, they leave, and they don't come back.

The forum was many things. It was a way to let off steam. It was a way to practice persuading others. It was a way to get to know the people who play this game and discover that they're quite as mad as you are. But perhaps the most important thing for the site is that the forum provided reasons to stick around when you were sick to death of the goddamned game until you were ready to start playing again.

Without the forum I would have lasted a year or two, max. With it, I stuck around long enough to learn how play at a rate that suited me.
Sure it is. If forum development and maintenance becomes front and center for the site, then of course this means dip will become less important. If everything is priority nothing is priority.

You speak a lot about how wonderful the old forum was but it won't be coming back. It just didn't scale. You need to specify the specific actionable things you want done to the new forum to make it as wonderful as you believed the old forum to be.

So what are your specific concerns again? Are you just upset that some topics are filtered from the front page (I probably would have completely gone if this hadn't happened)? Are you saying we shouldn't have any categories because it stops people from seeing topics though serendipity (or perhaps having an "All Topics" category too)? Or is it the fact that we don't allow embedded video, gifs and allow avatars (though the old forum didn't have these either)? Or something else? Or is this really just another argument about moderation which is completely irrelevant to what the forum looks like?
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#63 Post by Octavious » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:44 pm

Flash, I am perfectly aware that the old forum has gone, won't be coming back, and that the existing site leadership have zero interest in anything either I, nor any member who happens to disagree with them, has to say. That's absolutely fine, and the people who own the site are perfectly entitled to run it as they see fit.

But unless I am mistaken there is currently no rule that says I have to pretend to like it, nor is there any rule about discussing the subject. Just as there is no rule about you having to read my messages, where you will find my views quite clearly expressed.
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#64 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:15 pm

I am not saying you need to pretend to like it. I am just saying, apart from letting off steam, your comments are not very useful...unless all you really want to do is reminisce about "the good old days". Is that all you really want to achieve here?

For example, earlier on in the thread I proposed a compromise to allow politics to come back to the front page for those that want it. What do you think? Perhaps you think it should be opt-out instead of opt-in (I think it should be opt-in)?
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#65 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:27 pm

The site leadership are likely not interested in what you have to say at least partially because you are just complaining without suggesting any realistic solutions.
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#66 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:30 pm

If there are specific proposals we can all agree on which may require outside help I will put some money towards it.
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#67 Post by Octavious » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:53 pm

Utter tosh, Flash. Every single time there has been a plea from the membership regarding anything that the site leadership dislikes, it hasn't happened. Be it in the form of PPSC (which members were told would be brought back if there was popular demand, but wasn't) or the message archive from the old forum (that we were told was going to be added but wasn't) or the new politics thread (which was hidden from view and starved of new blood despite sticking to the new forum rules).

It is always the same. There's a vague promise to look at it some time in the future, and that never happens, and anyone who mentions it again is hounded as a complainer.

So I am no longer interested in trying to influence how the site works because I know full well it won't make the slightest bit of difference. The forum is dead, the community is dead, the SoW and initiatives that required a strong community are on their last legs, and they are not coming back. I come here to play diplomacy and occasionally comment in the vanishingly small number of threads that carry some interest. The days in which I cared about the future of this place, its rankings and features, or carried affection for it are gone. The only reasons I use this place over others are partly because of habit and partly because there are still a small handful of people here who I appreciate. Save your money.
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#68 Post by brainbomb » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:22 pm

the reason why its called the good ole days

is because thats when it was good. imagine if I went to chipotle and they got rid of meat.

oh salmonella is too dangerous
meat hurts the environment
were better off as a meatless burrito place

how bout a big fuck that
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#69 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:58 pm

Why even bother to complain on this thread if you aren't even willing to entertain potential solutions? This does not make sense to me.

If I remember from what I have seen in the past, the threads complaining about the forum have been quite hostile to the mods. Even here BB appeared to be insinuating some sort of bad intention on their part. What sort of positive response to that can you really expect?

In reality the mods are limited by those actually willing to make a commitment to manage the site and the limited amount of donations required to keep the site running. And they have to balance opinions like yours against people who don't like what often turns into trolling and nastiness. Moderating a forum when threads go out of control constantly takes a lot of time too and is largely a thankless task which makes no-one happy. Rather than some conspiracy, I see the Politics forum as a genuine attempt at compromise to try to make everyone (as much as possible) happy and to keep the amount of time mods need to spend sustainable.

This doesn't mean that was the right compromise of course. But again, insinuations of some bad motivations on their part...or expecting unrealistic changes to take place (i.e. that they ignore the time constraints on mods and the ignore the opinions of those that either just want to play dip and/or don't like the politics/troll threads) is just not going to get you anywhere.
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#70 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:19 pm

brainbomb wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:22 pm
the reason why its called the good ole days

is because thats when it was good. imagine if I went to chipotle and they got rid of meat.

oh salmonella is too dangerous
meat hurts the environment
were better off as a meatless burrito place

how bout a big fuck that
A more appropriate example would be a restaurant which was famous for its Thai food but also had Durian on the menu. Some people loved it but most people couldn't handle the stench. As a compromise the restaurant created a special room in the restaurant to try and balance the concerns of those that like Durian to those that don't. But now the Durian lovers are complaining because they can no longer sit at their special window seats when they eat Durian...and are casting all sorts of aspersions on the management for making this change.
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#71 Post by Octavious » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:28 pm

Are you reading what I'm saying at all, Flash? I have zero expectations of changes taking place, and as such I believe my expectations are 100% realistic. The hiding away of the politics forum was not a compromise, it was not required (the forum had been utterly tamed by the time it was introduced), and it was not desired by anyone who used the politics forum. It was imposed without warning or any announcement to the extent that no-one knew it had happened aside from the fact that their posts seemed to have mysteriously vanished. When people started questioning what had happened the site representatives said they'd look at it again after a period of time to see how it was working, and as usual nothing came of this fobbing off exercise.

Nothing will get anyone anywhere, Flash. That's not how this place works. There is no conspiracy. The site isn't run by bad people. The mods generally do a good job at moding. There are lots of good intentions and the product that has resulted from is the Coors Light of modern diplomacy. It's perfectly fine. It is an ok place to play diplomacy. It is what it is.
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#72 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:48 pm

I think you are too pessimistic. I floated a suggestion and one mod and one former mod liked it. I believe bo_sox is genuine in saying he welcomes actionable feedback...but so far we haven't really given him any.

To say that no one that currently responds to political threads wanted the Politics forum isn't really a reasonable standard. If your primary motivation is to respond to political threads then of course you are more likely to want this front and center. But even that statement isn't always true. I occasionally respond to threads in the politics forum and even I didn't want the nasty stuff on the front page. I believe Major Mitchell who also responds to politics threads also is fine with the Politics forum (at least to my understanding of his previous response to this thread - MM, please tell me if I have misunderstood). Just because a few people are very "squeaky" with their opinion on this doesn't mean it is even remotely a representative opinion for everyone on the site.
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#73 Post by goldfinger0303 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:54 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:58 pm
In reality the mods are limited by those actually willing to make a commitment to manage the site and the limited amount of donations required to keep the site running.
Eh, not exactly. There are certain personas non grata that they won't take who are willing to volunteer, myself among them I think. I've offered multiple times. When I was admin I clashed heavily against the forum changes.

They'll throw stats at you about how the site has improved, but a simple look at the waybackmachine shows that 8 years ago there were more active users and more active games than there are today. And today we have the benefits of 1v1 and bot games inflating numbers. The death of the forum sucked the soul out of the site. And it (the forum) is dead, that's for certain. The new format is not really conducive to discovering and having conversations. Nor is the discord terribly active. I think the old format was much more conducive to starting and holding conversations. Not having everything partitioned and filed away like a filing cabinet.
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#74 Post by brainbomb » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:03 pm

You keep saying no one has any ideas
no one has any feedback

I just listed 1 page ago 7 things that could make the site fun
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#75 Post by brainbomb » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:04 pm

I didnt even know there was a discord

heres the real discord you need to be on anyway
https://discord.gg/JSC7Ceu
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#76 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:13 pm

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:54 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:58 pm
In reality the mods are limited by those actually willing to make a commitment to manage the site and the limited amount of donations required to keep the site running.
Eh, not exactly. There are certain personas non grata that they won't take who are willing to volunteer, myself among them I think. I've offered multiple times. When I was admin I clashed heavily against the forum changes.

They'll throw stats at you about how the site has improved, but a simple look at the waybackmachine shows that 8 years ago there were more active users and more active games than there are today. And today we have the benefits of 1v1 and bot games inflating numbers. The death of the forum sucked the soul out of the site. And it (the forum) is dead, that's for certain. The new format is not really conducive to discovering and having conversations. Nor is the discord terribly active. I think the old format was much more conducive to starting and holding conversations. Not having everything partitioned and filed away like a filing cabinet.
Correlation != Causation. There could be many reasons why people are not involved in dip as they once were.

Anyway to turn your specific complaint into an actionable request - why couldn't we potentially have both - some way to view "All Topics" as well as a way to categorize too? If you tried to post from the all topics thread you would need to specify a category...with an opt-in to display the Politics/other hidden stuff in the "All Topics" and on the front page. What do you think?
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#77 Post by goldfinger0303 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:14 pm

And I've had feedback on the tournament part of the site sitting for several months now. One of which was "could you widen the columns of the chart so I can read people's names"

Seriously though, go to Tournaments->Scoring and Participants. Is the leftmost column not squished all to hell?

But since the tournament scene is dead too I understand that's not a priority. Only tournaments that seem to be consistently going on are cross-platform ones.
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#78 Post by brainbomb » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:16 pm

the mentorship program hasnt had a substantive post in it since august. and that was the NEW big thing
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#79 Post by brainbomb » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:18 pm

the life of this site is mafia games and mod team announcements at this point. seeing who steps up and who steps out.

and seeing the insane backlog of ppl wanting to play and host mafia. the highest karma holders on this site play mafia exclusively
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Re: The truth about the new forum

#80 Post by flash2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:21 pm

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:14 pm
And I've had feedback on the tournament part of the site sitting for several months now. One of which was "could you widen the columns of the chart so I can read people's names"

Seriously though, go to Tournaments->Scoring and Participants. Is the leftmost column not squished all to hell?

But since the tournament scene is dead too I understand that's not a priority. Only tournaments that seem to be consistently going on are cross-platform ones.
Not for me on Firefox. Are you looking at this from a phone?
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