what does agnostic mean to you?

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#41 Post by flash2015 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:27 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:11 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:55 pm
I grew up a Christian so I somewhat know what it is like. I felt the guilt...and the fear. In the Bible, the rich person came to Jesus and said he does everything right...and he essentially asks Jesus "I am saved, right"? Jesus essentially tells him you can never do enough. That is the message I got from the religious teaching.
It is remarkable how different people can be raised as Christians and yet have completely different understandings of it. I have never felt any guilt, have never felt any fear. The whole notion of a "God fearing Christian" was a weird and alien one only ever encountered in old literature and American films. Christianity was first and foremost about love, about trying to live a good life, and about being forgiven when you come up short. Jesus is our example, an ideal to aim for, with difficult lessons in humility, loving your enemy, charity. God is always there, every ready to listen to our worries, our failings, to forgive and to lend strength to make things right.

Guilt and fear? Remarkable....
Perhaps it is a Catholic vs. Protestant thing? The Protestant churches are generally more liberal whilst the Catholic church is more conservative (if they are both following God's teachings how can they both be right?). Yes, there is the "Jesus Is Love" part too...but there is the feeling too that you can never do enough and there is the fear that you may not measure up in the Creator's eyes. It isn't as bad as perhaps it was in the past with the "fire and brimstone" ideas of Hell (more like a fuzzy idea of absence of God) but the ideas still persist. After all why would you be good without the fear of eternal punishment? That, at least to my understanding, is why a society not built on religion would not work...because there is no fear of the Creator's wrath.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#42 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:36 pm

bo_sox48 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:04 pm
To suffer is good to those who don't.

You have food. You have a bed. You may have some money. You have a society and a support system around you that gives you opportunity. Every single person on this website has it to some degree, and dare I say most of us on this forum have the privilege of not suffering in our daily lives.

Ask the kid who had his arms sawed off by soldiers in East Africa for running away after they killed his parents in front of him how suffering feels. Ask the girl in a labor camp that hasn't eaten more than a stale slice of bread in the last week how suffering feels. If you live in the United States, maybe visit the parts of this country you unintentionally avoid where the "socioeconomically disadvantaged" are segregated and robbed of the freedom of opportunity to elevate themselves in our society because of the conditions that surround them and the decisions they are forced to make in order to survive. If you live in Europe, visit the Mediterranean coast where migrants arrive on boats unfit for your neighborhood swimming pool malnourished and dying of exposure in order to escape the suffering that they have dealt with for their whole lives. If you're familiar with these circumstances, or aware of others that imply that someone is truly suffering, then you would never suggest that suffering is just an unfortunate tenet of human nature.

The death of Jesus was an act of authority on the part of Rome. He did not die for your sins. He died because he dared to preach that suffering was not a necessary component of society, and if you care about the words he preached you should do your due diligence to end suffering in the world because that's what he actually wanted.
First of all, people in the first world suffer too. You don't know my own life and it is grotesquely inappropriate of you to presume that because I haven't suffered the absolute worst that this world has to offer that I haven't suffered at all.
It is a fact that without struggle and suffering people don't appreciate what they have and rarely seek to improve things. Hunger is what motivated cavemen to design weapons for hunting and to think about ways to develop reliable sources of food--leading to agriculture. Cold and a lack of shelter motivated man to build buildings. The examples are endless.
This doesn't make suffering a moral good. It's plain fact that it is the chief motivator behind innovation though.

Secondly, regarding "due diligence to end suffering in the world"... who said anything to the contrary? Certainly Christ Himself preached that we should help those who are suffering. Nowhere did I say or imply that suffering was just some fact of life about which we can do nothing or have no obligation to do something. I simply pointed out the fact that suffering is principally what gives our actions meaning, much like how evil is principally what gives good meaning. You wouldn't take that to mean that I support evil or that I support doing nothing to stop evil, right? So why would you take my comments on suffering to mean that I support suffering or that I support doing nothing to stop suffering?

Lastly, Christ did not preach that suffering was an unnecessary part of society. To the contrary, He told His followers to expect to suffer greatly in His name. In fact He even encouraged His followers to take on some degree of suffering for sake of helping others, telling them to dispose of all their possessions. He preached that we should work to alleviate the suffering of others, but that is very different from calling it unnecessary.
Christianity is very clear that the world has fallen and is imperfectible. I don't see how you can square that with the idea that suffering is unnecessary.
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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#43 Post by flash2015 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:41 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:27 pm
Octavious wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:11 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:55 pm
I grew up a Christian so I somewhat know what it is like. I felt the guilt...and the fear. In the Bible, the rich person came to Jesus and said he does everything right...and he essentially asks Jesus "I am saved, right"? Jesus essentially tells him you can never do enough. That is the message I got from the religious teaching.
It is remarkable how different people can be raised as Christians and yet have completely different understandings of it. I have never felt any guilt, have never felt any fear. The whole notion of a "God fearing Christian" was a weird and alien one only ever encountered in old literature and American films. Christianity was first and foremost about love, about trying to live a good life, and about being forgiven when you come up short. Jesus is our example, an ideal to aim for, with difficult lessons in humility, loving your enemy, charity. God is always there, every ready to listen to our worries, our failings, to forgive and to lend strength to make things right.

Guilt and fear? Remarkable....
Perhaps it is a Catholic vs. Protestant thing? The Protestant churches are generally more liberal whilst the Catholic church is more conservative (if they are both following God's teachings how can they both be right?). Yes, there is the "Jesus Is Love" part too...but there is the feeling too that you can never do enough and there is the fear that you may not measure up in the Creator's eyes. It isn't as bad as perhaps it was in the past with the "fire and brimstone" ideas of Hell (more like a fuzzy idea of absence of God) but the ideas still persist. After all why would you be good without the fear of eternal punishment? That, at least to my understanding, is why a society not built on religion would not work...because there is no fear of the Creator's wrath.
Of course I have lived in the US more than 20 years now...so their ideas of Christianity are probably having an effect on me too and making me see it in a more negative light. I didn't realize I wasn't really a Catholic anymore until I went to Mass in a US church and saw the very different priorities to what we had back in Australia.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#44 Post by bo_sox48 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:22 pm

Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:36 pm
First of all, people in the first world suffer too. You don't know my own life and it is grotesquely inappropriate of you to presume that because I haven't suffered the absolute worst that this world has to offer that I haven't suffered at all.
No, actually, it's not inappropriate at all. You're spending your free time on a gaming website discussing faith and its place in the world as opposed to fighting in a war, despairing as your survival options dwindle under despotic rule, or preparing to walk two hours in the baking sun in order to work all day exposed in a field in order to feed your family. You are okay, and you will be okay.

You may suffer, to an extent. I do. I attempted suicide when I was 14 and have suicidal thoughts pretty much daily, because my brain is wired to think the world sucks and that everything is meaningless. To only want to live because you know that your head is playing tricks on you and that your family and friends would be a combination of sad and pissed off if I didn't is suffering. You might face something similar or something different. But my life is pretty damn good. I have everything I need. You do too. If you don't, I'm sorry for making assumptions, but I've been on this site a long time and I know the crowd that walks these halls and you are in the extreme minority if you don't have everything you need in order to live a healthy life. Suffering and webDiplomacy don't really go hand in hand very often.
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:36 pm
Hunger is what motivated cavemen to design weapons for hunting and to think about ways to develop reliable sources of food--leading to agriculture. Cold and a lack of shelter motivated man to build buildings. The examples are endless.
This doesn't make suffering a moral good. It's plain fact that it is the chief motivator behind innovation though.
...no, it's not. At all. Cavemen did things because they have brains and they realized that they could make their lives better, not because they were dying and they wanted to try to experiment with fire as they were gasping for their last, hardened breaths. Man, like other creatures, constructs shelter because our natural instinct is to do so. We do not lean on eternal misery to make improvements in our world; we lean on the fact that evolution gave us the ability to do so and our inherent natural goal is to make the best of the life that we have. Nowadays, we lean on the knowledge that humanity has worked hard to attain to continue to improve on our lives that are already pretty good. We didn't go to the moon because life on Earth is suffering; we went because we wanted to go to the goddamn moon. By your mystical logic, automobiles were invented because horsedrawn carriages were causing suffering. Too bumpy, I guess. We do things because we're smart and want better, not because we constantly have one foot in the fire and are only holding on by a thread.
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:36 pm
Secondly, regarding "due diligence to end suffering in the world"... who said anything to the contrary?
You. Your words:

"You would strip any meaning to existence if you eliminated all evil and suffering."
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:36 pm
I simply pointed out the fact that suffering is principally what gives our actions meaning, much like how evil is principally what gives good meaning. You wouldn't take that to mean that I support evil or that I support doing nothing to stop evil, right?
No, but I take your previous comment to mean that life without evil and suffering is meaningless, because that's what you said. I think life without evil and suffering would be a sweet deal. Isn't that what your heaven is supposed to be? Isn't that what religious people tend to strive for? Eternity without evil and suffering, with total redemption and bliss in every step of the afterlife, is a wonderful ideal vision. But we're not in the afterlife, so let's bring it here. We're perfectly capable of it.

Evil only gives meaning if you take meaning from evil. Your life shouldn't be based on evil, nor should it be based on suffering. Your life should be based on doing good to end evil and end suffering. It does not need to be written in a book or shouted from the skies. You should not be disappointed or otherwise depressed by a world without suffering or without evil. You should, and probably would, because you don't seem like a morally inept person, be happy if that ever came to fruition. If you would manage to lose all sense of meaning in life if people weren't suffering or victims of evil anymore, I don't even know what mean thing to call you.
Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:36 pm
Lastly, Christ did not preach that suffering was an unnecessary part of society. To the contrary, He told His followers to expect to suffer greatly in His name. In fact He even encouraged His followers to take on some degree of suffering for sake of helping others, telling them to dispose of all their possessions. He preached that we should work to alleviate the suffering of others, but that is very different from calling it unnecessary.
Christ wanted to end poverty, bring together the masses, and make life fair regardless of the social status one is born into. He got a lot of people to empathize with those who are really suffering by offering them a measly taste of it. That is some smart rhetoric. Clearly, as it has survived thousands of years.
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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#45 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:31 pm

You are a very condescending and preachy person. Have a good one.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#46 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:35 pm

Two things to say:

First of all, props to Bo.

I would gladly give up free will for all humans, if in return all suffering was ended. That's a fucking no-brainer. There is so much suffering in the world that ending it is worth almost any cost.

Secondly, I would like to sincerely thank Uber for his genuine and diligent attempt to explain God, in response to my question. Unfortunately, you fail to get to the root of my problem. Let me try to explain it more clearly:

- I struggle to understand what God is.
- Christians tell me, "God is incomprehensible, but you must have faith".

- HOW can I have faith in the existence of something I cannot mentally conceive of? I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS. I CAN'T IMAGINE IT. HOW CAN I HAVE FAITH IN ""IT"" WHEN I LITERALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT "IT" IS?

A Christian asking me if I believe in God is like me asking a Christian to believe in vrhgchegg, the jrifkeikfir who created the world and demanded that all men rkffikrri3krifr to his rhrjrirjrjjr.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#47 Post by Octavious » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:03 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:35 pm
I would gladly give up free will for all humans, if in return all suffering was ended. That's a fucking no-brainer. There is so much suffering in the world that ending it is worth almost any cost.
Now that is interesting. It's a no-brainer, certainly, but I'd take free will every time. I've got an infinity of not suffering waiting for me when I'm dead. Free will is a far rarer and more precious gift.

As for what God is, beyond all the creation malarkey that you either believe or you don't, I guess it's different for everyone. God is who listens to your thoughts and fears and helps guide you in those moments of silent worry and reflection. God is that perfect moment when the light is just right and it shines upon a landscape of stunning beauty and you're filled with a profound feeling of contentment and belonging. God is the steel that fills you when you choose a difficult path for the right reasons. God is what picks you up when by all rights you should be down and out.

Of course it's perfectly possible to experience all that without any belief in God whatsoever, but to me that's what God is.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#48 Post by Polycarp_of_Smyrna » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:07 pm

bo_sox48 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:22 am
Philosophy is now dominated by testable theory and the scientific process in an effort to make better sense of what we already know, whereas it used to be dominated by logic and rational extensions beyond what was already known in an effort to do the job that science and discovery have done.
I agree with your analysis that there has been a shift in emphasis from logic to empiricism when it comes to how we know things. However I disagree with your stance that the scientific method is somehow superior to logic.

The classical syllogism is "All men are mortal", "Socrates is a man", therefore "Socrates is mortal". We can be sure of this through logical reasoning. We do not need to empirically test Socrates' mortality.

Empiricism can actually less effective in this case. We can throw everything we have at Socrates, but if he does not die we cannot make a conclusion about his morality.

However, there appears to be a growing distrust in logic today. People are less likely to agree to something proven by a syllogism than if they were told that it was proven by science. But science is not perfect (see the psychology replication crisis).

I believe that a large part of the distrust in logic comes from logic not being taught in the core curriculum of schools. I was not exposed to logic until my sophomore year of college in a discrete math class in the computer science department.

Society is doing itself a disservice by not having its members systemically learn logic. Without logic, you end up with people who cannot think properly and draw wrong conclusions. You get things like "alternative facts" which cannot possibly exist according to logic.
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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#49 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:15 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:03 pm
As for what God is, beyond all the creation malarkey that you either believe or you don't, I guess it's different for everyone. God is who listens to your thoughts and fears and helps guide you in those moments of silent worry and reflection. God is that perfect moment when the light is just right and it shines upon a landscape of stunning beauty and you're filled with a profound feeling of contentment and belonging. God is the steel that fills you when you choose a difficult path for the right reasons. God is what picks you up when by all rights you should be down and out.
Nobody listens to my thoughts, and I don't want them to.

When I feel contentment and belonging, it is almost always due to the actions of another human.

When I feel steeled by taking on a challenge? I did that. Go me.

When I tried to kill myself, my friend Emily saved me.


None of this is "God" to me.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#50 Post by Octavious » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:28 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:15 pm
Nobody listens to my thoughts, and I don't want them to.

When I feel contentment and belonging, it is almost always due to the actions of another human.

When I feel steeled by taking on a challenge? I did that. Go me.

When I tried to kill myself, my friend Emily saved me.


None of this is "God" to me.
Fair enough. You wanted a definition, and that is mine. It is by no means universal, nor is it comprehensive, and I have no interest whatsoever in trying to impose God on anyone. But that is what God is to me.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#51 Post by Jamiet99uk » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:33 pm

Octavious wrote: Fair enough. You wanted a definition, and that is mine. It is by no means universal, nor is it comprehensive, and I have no interest whatsoever in trying to impose God on anyone. But that is what God is to me.
Fair enough.

I remain unable to conceive of God.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#52 Post by ubercacher16 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:41 am

flash2015 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:24 pm
ubercacher16 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:48 pm
One more thing about all this.

Because of all of the above God is infinitely deserving of our praise and adoration.
Why does God care about the infinite praise part...especially since God does not even want to provide definitive proof of his/her/its existence?

And is belief and praise of God more or less important than actually living a good life? i.e. Can I be a good person without believing in the "correct" Deity?
One of the most potent and important parts of "praise and adoration" is attempting to meet God's very high(unattainable) standard for righteousness here on earth. That is generally classified as "living a good life."

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#53 Post by ubercacher16 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:46 am

ziran wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:47 pm
ubercacher16 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:21 pm
God is omnipotent, he is omniscient, he is omnibenevolent , and he is omnipresent. There is a common argument out there claiming that the Christian God cannot exist because it is impossible to meet all these requirements. These arguments rely on human definitions of benevolence and are therefore invalid.
This is the only part I take issue with, other than the bits that are specific to Christianity rather than theism as a whole. Also, of these four descriptors, omni-benevolence is the only one you don't argue a case for. And I think it requires the most arguing.

If these terms don't have definitions that are knowable to humans, they are effectively meaningless. They may have divine meaning, but what does it matter here on earth? But these words do have definitions knowable to humans. If god is something else, it should be called something else.
I didn't say they aren't knowable to humans, sorry if it sounded like that. The arguments I am referencing(as I am sure you are aware) generally say something like; if God is all good, and all powerful, then why does evil exist?

The explanation for this is twofold. Firstly since God is omniscient he knows how to solve the "problem of evil," secondly, He is solving the problem!

It's a moot point to argue that God isn't doing anything, He did and He is!

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#54 Post by bo_sox48 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:48 am

Polycarp_of_Smyrna wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:07 pm
I agree with your analysis that there has been a shift in emphasis from logic to empiricism when it comes to how we know things. However I disagree with your stance that the scientific method is somehow superior to logic.
I didn't intend to make a blanket statement in support of the scientific method over logic. It very much depends on the situation, and there is often no reason why they cannot work together. Using logic to make extensions of what one already knows is a perfectly valid approach. Science uses logic all the time, and syllogism rests its laurels on the validity of the premises that science and observation have provided. They're not mutually exclusive at all.
Polycarp_of_Smyrna wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:07 pm
I believe that a large part of the distrust in logic comes from logic not being taught in the core curriculum of schools. I was not exposed to logic until my sophomore year of college in a discrete math class in the computer science department.
I wasn't until my freshman year of college (and would not have been introduced if I did not intend to double major in education and philosophy), though looking back I had an instructor in high school who had a doctorate in philosophy that made fair use of it. I understood it perfectly well; I just didn't know what I was learning.

Everything you posted is fair and I generally agree, but I think you're taking my statement that the advancement of scientific theory and the progression of philosophy toward scientific thought processes as an opinion rather than an observation. No harm no foul.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#55 Post by ubercacher16 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:53 am

Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:06 pm
The main issue I see is not the idea of evil and suffering existing alongside an all-good God, but the narrative of a final victory over evil and suffering. In my view this can only occur in an End of Everything. You would strip any meaning to existence if you eliminated all evil and suffering.
I have spent time thinking about this very issue. It's a tough one. The orthodox(old fashioned word for "right") position is that after the final resurrection every person who put their faith in God and Jesus is renewed given a heavenly body and the earth and heaven are also renewed and made holy again. A "He will wipe every tear" sort of thing. The purpose of existence would then be praising God eternally. This is what a fairly plain reading of the Bible would give someone, and Christians(at least ones I have met) tend to skim over the part about praising Him eternally. As I mentioned in my big long post, eternity is a concept totally foreign to everything we experience in this life. I don't know what it'll be like, I have some guesses, but I really don't know.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#56 Post by ubercacher16 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:10 am

flash2015 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:55 pm
or they may even go further and say that being wealthy is a gift from God and by being wealthy it means you must be a good person (the Christian prosperity churches).


Just want you to know this is a completely un-Biblical doctrine.
flash2015 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:55 pm
I grew up a Christian so I somewhat know what it is like. I felt the guilt...and the fear. In the Bible, the rich person came to Jesus and said he does everything right...and he essentially asks Jesus "I am saved, right"? Jesus essentially tells him you can never do enough. That is the message I got from the religious teaching.
Octavious answered this partially above, I'll try to do more. That is what you should have gotten from that particular story. Jesus was demonstrating how impossible it is for someone to accrue God's favor, it's totally impossible. This is exactly why the doctrine of grace is so amazing. A perfect Creator who's creation has fallen away from his favor sends His Son to earth to forgive the sins of humankind.
flash2015 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:55 pm
I know the Christian idea of Jesus too. Many of my childhood friends would have the "footsteps in the sand" story on their walls (not from the Bible)...the idea being that Jesus always walking beside you. When the person asks "why are there only one set of footprints here?" which Jesus says "This is where I carried you". So when do I end...and Jesus start? Where is my free will in all this? This doesn't make sense to me...at least not anymore
I get this. The freewill debate is rampant within Christianity and is something that has divided entire nations in the past. Some people look at the Bible and say freewill doesn't exist, that we only experience the illusion of it. Some others look at the Bible and insist that God must provide us with some freewill, it is within his capacity to do so after all, and how can we truly show devotion without freewill?

I personally believe that it is some combination of the two. We have some freewill to determine our salvation or lack there of(through faith not works), but all the glory stays with the Lord.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#57 Post by ubercacher16 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:19 am

bo_sox48 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:04 pm
The death of Jesus was an act of authority on the part of Rome. He did not die for your sins. He died because he dared to preach that suffering was not a necessary component of society, and if you care about the words he preached you should do your due diligence to end suffering in the world because that's what he actually wanted.
Jesus died for the sins of the world, yours included. The Jewish and Roman court systems were the means of his death, not the reason.

The second part is much more true. Many Christians rely on a doctrine that believes that Jesus will come back any day now riding on a celestial donkey and wielding a flaming sword of vengeance striking down our enemies. This, oddly enough, is exactly what the Jews were(and are still) waiting for. A warlike messiah, instead the got a peaceful preacher.

There is a small minority within Christianity that believes something a little different. We believe that the majority(some of the destruction and catastrophe, not the final judgement) of what happened in Revelation happened at Jerusalem in AD 70. What follows then is the question, what should we be doing?

The answer, at least according to my father and some others, is building the kingdom of God here on earth, something that involves "ending suffering" as you put it.

This doctrine is not fully formed yet, so don't yell heretic quite yet. But I just want you to know that there are some Christians much more focused on
"fixing" the world than leaving it.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#58 Post by ubercacher16 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:35 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:35 pm
Secondly, I would like to sincerely thank Uber for his genuine and diligent attempt to explain God, in response to my question. Unfortunately, you fail to get to the root of my problem. Let me try to explain it more clearly:

- I struggle to understand what God is.
- Christians tell me, "God is incomprehensible, but you must have faith".

- HOW can I have faith in the existence of something I cannot mentally conceive of? I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS. I CAN'T IMAGINE IT. HOW CAN I HAVE FAITH IN ""IT"" WHEN I LITERALLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT "IT" IS?

A Christian asking me if I believe in God is like me asking a Christian to believe in vrhgchegg, the jrifkeikfir who created the world and demanded that all men rkffikrri3krifr to his rhrjrirjrjjr.
I am sorry that I couldn't get there. I'm not even sure how answer that. I have always had a concept of God, and never really questioned that basic concept(I have questioned my belief in it).

May I assume your lack of knowledge is complete? You have absolutely zero idea who God is?

That's a start by the way, God is a who not an it.

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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#59 Post by flash2015 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:01 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:33 pm
Octavious wrote: Fair enough. You wanted a definition, and that is mine. It is by no means universal, nor is it comprehensive, and I have no interest whatsoever in trying to impose God on anyone. But that is what God is to me.
Fair enough.

I remain unable to conceive of God.
I should think it would be hard for you to conceive God. Also I assume you aren't a virgin so that makes it even harder. But who knows? As they say God works in mysterious ways... :razz:
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ubercacher16
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Re: what does agnostic mean to you?

#60 Post by ubercacher16 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:10 am

flash2015 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:01 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:33 pm
Octavious wrote: Fair enough. You wanted a definition, and that is mine. It is by no means universal, nor is it comprehensive, and I have no interest whatsoever in trying to impose God on anyone. But that is what God is to me.
Fair enough.

I remain unable to conceive of God.
I should think it would be hard for you to conceive God. Also I assume you aren't a virgin so that makes it even harder. But who knows? As they say God works in mysterious ways... :razz:
It's not entirely impossible. Happened once before, why shouldn't it happen again?

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