Inconsistencies with coastal orders

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BismarckAlive
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Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#1 Post by BismarckAlive » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:59 pm

Hi all,

I copy here a recent conversation with a site moderator.

I still don't see how F NWY s F FIN-STP(sc) is different to F FIN s F NWY-STP(nc), and how both should not fail. Does anyone else agree?

:(

Hi,
I have noticed some strange moves before in internet play, and just want to confirm my understanding of the rules.

A unit can only support another unit into a space it itself can move into. Is that correct?

Therefore, it would follow that:

(1) F SMY cannot support another unit into Ankara, correct?
(2) F FIN cannot support F NWY-STP(nc), correct?
(3) F SPA (nc) cannot support a unit in MAR, correct?

Hi,

Yes to all 3 points you've raised.
I would strongly advise you to familiarise yourself with the game rules by reading the official Rulebook by Allan Calhamer accessible at https://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/diplomacy.pdf. Our Site strictly adheres to it in terms of the rules.

With questions related to gameplay, rules, strategies, etc, I would strongly suggest to you posting a thread on our Forum, where you are guaranteed to received most comprehensive feedback. The Moderator Team are basically dealing with technical and legal issues.

webDiplomacy Moderator

What about F NWY s F FIN-STP(sc) as occurred in a recent game?

webDiplomacy Moderator
Apr 23 (2 days ago)
to me
Hi,

this is a little bit tricky situation.
A unit can move support another unit if both of them technically can enter the province. That's the overarching rule. It gets slightly modified in relation to fleets, and especially in relation to the three coastal provinces of BUL, SPA, and STP. I copy from the Calhamer Manual, page 5:

'Bulgaria, Spain, and St. Petersburg: These are the only coastal
provinces that have two separately identified coasts. A Fleet entering
one of these provinces enters along one coast and can then move
to a province adjacent to that coast only. The Fleet, nevertheless,
is considered to be occupying the entire province. Such a Fleet
should be placed on the coastline rather than completely inland.
For example, a Fleet at Spain's North Coast cannot be ordered to
move to the Western Mediterranean or to the Gulf of Lyon or to
Marseilles. It is, however, considered to be occupying all of Spain.
If a Fleet is ordered to one of these provinces, and it is possible
for the Fleet to move to either coast, the order must specify which
coast, or the Fleet does not move. For example, a Fleet in
Constantinople can move to Bulgaria's East or South Coast.
The order would be written "F Con-Bul EC" or "F Con-Bul SC."
Likewise, a Fleet in the Mid-Atlantic Ocean can move to Spain's
North or South Coast, but the order must specify which coast.'

Now back to the case you've referred to. First off, you will note that you'd asked: '(2) F FIN cannot support F NWY-STP(nc), correct?'. And that is correct. F FIN can enter STP(sc) itself, but NWY wouldn't have such an option available, as such an order would be invalid. The actual order given in the match in question was, however, reversed. F NWY move supported F FIN-STP(sc). The situation changes here. F NWY is ESSENTIALLY capable of entering the PROVINCE of STP (let's forget the detail what coast for a moment). Remember the overarching rule I've referred to at the beginning? A unit can move support another unit if both of them technically can enter the PROVINCE. F NWY cannot go to the (sc), but by virtue of (sc) being a part of the STP province, it can offer support to another unit that is capable of entering that province, AND its COAST. It seems then that the rules related to supporting are slightly relaxed compared to the rules governing movements.
I've tried to be as concise, and as informative as I can. Hope this helps even a little bit. Your best bet is always to pose a question on the Forum. There is an army of people constantly present there and willing to help others out.
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#2 Post by bo_sox48 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:38 pm

A fleet would have to be able to access the north coast of St. Petersburg from Finland in order to make that support. They can't do that in one turn because Finland doesn't connect to that coast. It only connects to the south coast of St. Petersburg. An army could make that support because it can cross land in one turn, but a fleet cannot cross land at all, so it can't support a unit traveling to a territory that it can only reach across land either.

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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#3 Post by mhsmith0 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:49 pm

I don't really understand the distinction given in the OP.

Either the standard is
1) If a unit can move to ANY part of the province, it can offer support to hold or attack ANY part of the province
i.e.
F SMY cannot support another unit into Ankara, because F SMY cannot move to ANK
F FIN CAN support F NWY-STP(nc), because F Fin can move to STP sc, which is part of STP, and can therefore support STP nc as well
F NWY CAN support F Fin-STPsc, because F NWY can move to STP nc, which is part of STP, and can therefore support STP sc as well
F SPA (nc) cannot support a unit in MAR, because F SPAnc cannot move to MAR


Or the standard is
2)
i.e.
F SMY cannot support another unit into Ankara, because F SMY cannot move to ANK
F FIN CANNOT support F NWY-STP(nc), because F Fin can move to STP sc, but not STPnc
F NWY CAN support F Fin-STPsc, because F NWY can move to STP nc, but not STPsc
F SPA (nc) cannot support a unit in MAR, because F SPAnc cannot move to MAR


My understanding has always been standard #1, not standard #2
which means that F NWY can support F Fin into STP (sc) ,and F Fin can support F NWY into STP (nc), and either of them can support any unit anywhere in STP to hold. If that is true, based on the quoted discussion I believe the site mod gave an incorrect ruling on F FIN's eligibility to support F NWY-STPsc. Am I wrong?
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#4 Post by JECE » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:56 pm

BismarckAlive wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:59 pm
I still don't see how F NWY s F FIN-STP(sc) is different to F FIN s F NWY-STP(nc), and how both should not fail. Does anyone else agree?
Both should actually succeed. I'm not sure why you were told otherwise.
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#5 Post by Tom Bombadil » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:18 pm

Yes. You were given incorrect information. A fleet in Finland can support a move to either St. Pet coast, even though it can only move to the southern coast. If it can move to the territory, it can offer support to that territory. So because Finland can move to St. Pet, it can offer support into either coast.

Here is an example of this:

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameI ... #gamePanel

Spring 1906, a fleet in Norway successfuly support a move from GoB to St. Pet South Coast, even though a fleet in Norway can only move to the north coast of St. Pet.

Hope this clears it up.
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#6 Post by bo_sox48 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:19 pm

Really, we allow that? Damn, I'm learning new things every day.
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#7 Post by Peregrine Falcon » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:36 pm

When looking for answers about complex issues with the rules such as this, I would suggest checking out the Diplomacy Adjudicator Test Cases (DATC). It is a series of rules issues and their resolutions. webDip is (almost) completely DATC compliant.
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#8 Post by peterwiggin » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:45 pm

Back in the day, the admins at least knew the rules.
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#9 Post by vixol » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:02 pm

the coasts are not separate territories. so the thumb rule "you can support to a territory you can move to" still holds true.
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#10 Post by mhsmith0 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:17 pm

Tfw you had a can/cannot typo in yiur response and forum doesn’t let you edit posts for whatever reason :razz:

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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#11 Post by ghug » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:14 pm

I'd like to formally apologize on behalf of the mod team for the misinformation. Please remember that, though bo is now an admin, he is still the worst.

-webDiplomacy Administrator
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#12 Post by bo_sox48 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:36 pm

peterwiggin wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:45 pm
Back in the day, the admins at least knew the rules.
I basically taught you how to use the mod tools. Shush.

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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#13 Post by ghug » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:38 pm

Remember when Wiggy didn't know about the notice page after eight years on the site?
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#14 Post by Peregrine Falcon » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:04 pm

Just another of PW's incredible feats.

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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#15 Post by BismarckAlive » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:23 pm

Thanks heaps!
I guess that means the following works as well then:
F GAS s F MAO-SPA (sc)
Cheers! It was good to clear up before the tourney...
😊

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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#16 Post by Peregrine Falcon » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:28 pm

BismarckAlive wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:23 pm
I guess that means the following works as well then:
F GAS s F MAO-SPA (sc)
Yep, that also works.

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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#17 Post by Jamiet99uk » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:02 pm

bo_sox48 wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:36 pm
peterwiggin wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:45 pm
Back in the day, the admins at least knew the rules.
I basically taught you how to use the mod tools. Shush.
Yeah but if you want to be a moderator on a Diplomacy site it would be a good idea to make sure you know the rules of Diplomacy. Unless you only want to moderate Forum shitposting. Sheesh.

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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#18 Post by JECE » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:39 pm

It looks like I had to insult bo_sox48 to get my fair share of +1's.

What does this say about the future of webDip? :?

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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#19 Post by ghug » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:51 pm

JECE wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:39 pm
It looks like I had to insult bo_sox48 to get my fair share of +1's.

What does this say about the future of webDip? :?
I think it means that the culture of the old forum is alive and well.
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Re: Inconsistencies with coastal orders

#20 Post by Ezio » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:54 pm

With a few new faces

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