Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

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mikolaj420
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Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#1 Post by mikolaj420 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:03 am

I've seen quite a few examples of the new excused missed turns system being incredibly inefficient.

For example:
Someone NMRs, gets their extra phased length, then NMRs again and goes into civil disorder. Someone new takes over and of course they have the 1/1 excused missed turn available. I've had this new player also NMR on their first turn resulting in another extra phase going by further slowing the game. Theoretically this could keep going on forever because every new player gets the same excused missed turns.

Here is a game I decided against taking over because of this issue; you can see the frustration in the global chat:
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameI ... #gamePanel

Thoughts on this?
A potential solution is to not allow any excused missed turns for takeovers.

BobMcBob
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#2 Post by BobMcBob » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:14 am

Um, I think you'll find takeovers don't get more excused missed turns. They get kicked immediately if they miss one, for the exact reason you just mentioned.
Plus, four missed turns, is excessive, especially with three day phases. You should check the specifications before joining games.
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mikolaj420
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#3 Post by mikolaj420 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:26 am

I didn't realize it was possible to set the number of excused missed turns.

Claesar
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#4 Post by Claesar » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:03 am

As your suggested potential solution has been active since the start, we'll presume you're happy and will follow Bob's advice in the future ;-)

Though perhaps we should add "(Recommended)" behind "1 Excused Delay" in the game creation menu.

scrodz
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#5 Post by scrodz » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:28 pm

The concept of the excused missed turn is solid; I hated the way games were skewed when a country went CD. That said, the availability of missed turns certainly slows the game down. I had a recent game with a total of nine excused missed turns out of six possible countries. Between the two options, I'll take the excused delays, but I wish it wasn't used so much.

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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#6 Post by RoganJosh » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:11 pm

Yeah missed turns are good. But we should all be prepared that they are gonna become more and more common. People are gonna view it as their "right" to delay the game a phase of two, for whatever reason.
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#7 Post by bo_sox48 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:27 pm

With time and a hard look at how the missed turns feature is used/abused, we may be able to tweak it some to make it better. For example, we have at times discussed making it impossible for someone to retake their position again without moderator intervention after they have been removed so that they cannot continually delay turns, particularly in private games. At some point, we may decide to make that change among others that make the delays less likely and/or less impactful on the flow of the game, but for now the prevailing thought is that delaying the game when a player is absent is a better result for the integrity of the game than allowing the turn to process without a power placing orders.
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Claesar
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#8 Post by Claesar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:41 pm

RoganJosh wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:11 pm
Yeah missed turns are good. But we should all be prepared that they are gonna become more and more common. People are gonna view it as their "right" to delay the game a phase of two, for whatever reason.
They'll still take a hit to their RR. Even if the NMR is 'excused'.

AncientMemories
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#9 Post by AncientMemories » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:06 pm

RoganJosh wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:11 pm
But we should all be prepared that they are gonna become more and more common. People are gonna view it as their "right" to delay the game a phase of two, for whatever reason.
I was thinking about this the other day. I wonder if people are going to start using the delays as a tool for getting extra time in negotiations on critical phases, if you play games with shorter phase length settings.

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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#10 Post by Magnetic24 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:16 pm

AncientMemories wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:06 pm
RoganJosh wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:11 pm
But we should all be prepared that they are gonna become more and more common. People are gonna view it as their "right" to delay the game a phase of two, for whatever reason.
I was thinking about this the other day. I wonder if people are going to start using the delays as a tool for getting extra time in negotiations on critical phases, if you play games with shorter phase length settings.
I did this today in a live game. I just couldn't finish all of my negotiations and moves so I delayed the game.

PRINCE WILLIAM
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#11 Post by PRINCE WILLIAM » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:56 am

An excused miss in a live game is a matter of minutes so it isn't so much of a big thing; when a game has already a day-long phase it starts to get annoying. Yet it is a good feature as accidents can happen and a player can lose a turn, it is a shame to lose the game for it.

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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#12 Post by Kremmen » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:44 am

bo_sox48 wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:27 pm
but for now the prevailing thought is that delaying the game when a player is absent is a better result for the integrity of the game than allowing the turn to process without a power placing orders.
How about the enjoyment of the game? You look forward to playing a turn each day (or whatever your preferred schedule is) and then instead get day after day of nothing. Then you wonder if it's even worth visiting the web site, but have to in order to check if there's actually a turn to make. Instead of something to look forward to, it's just "ho, hum, yet another day of nothing".

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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#13 Post by Claesar » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:15 am

Wouldn't know, I'm currently playing about 16 games. Play more games.
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#14 Post by Restitution » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:12 pm

I would rather a significantly delayed game over one with NMRs and CDs. Site has gotten significantly better since this change. I love it.

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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#15 Post by ChippeRock » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:41 pm

Claesar wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:15 am
Wouldn't know, I'm currently playing about 16 games. Play more games.
Restitution wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:12 pm
I would rather a significantly delayed game over one with NMRs and CDs. Site has gotten significantly better since this change. I love it.
I've taken over for CD'd countries in like 20 games - the delays are an absolute bitch! Makes the game so un-fun to play, because it's just exacerbating to have countless delays in my games - especially when they use up their excused missing turn and you just KNOW that they're going to miss the next turn as well.

The dumbest of these delays is for gunboat games - I don't feel like waiting 2 fricking days (due to the phase reset) for a country who's going to get eliminated within a year in a damn gunboat game!

I know there's really no way to solve this, and occasionally a crucial ally of mine gets taken over rather than not entering any moves, but the majority of the time it's a country who I either don't care about (their moves aren't of any concern to me) and/or one that's about to get eliminated soon. The only recommendation I could provide might be to shorten the amount of time other players have to wait for orders to be entered in a gunboat game - does someone really need a full day to enter in orders?

Either way, these delays are EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING and I'd really prefer a way to speed these delays up or at least limit the amount of delays (NOT through the RR - since that does jack squat in my opinion). And yes, I understand that you can control the reliability of the players in the games - but I'm taking over for people, so I don't have any control over this (and to whomever who tries suggesting that I not take over these games, piss off - I'm just adding my two cents and making sure this view point is represented in this thread).

Either way, I would MUCH RATHER have the old system back - at least the games were played much faster. I don't feel like waiting 3 days (2 days for the excused + unexcused NMRs, and than another day for the actual phase time) for a game's turn.

Please note: I'm not advocating for the old system, I'm just stating it was BETTER than the current one. Something needs to be changed about the current one: especially for gunboat games.

Edit: While we're on the topic of speeding up games, if a country has a retreat that can only be disbanded (and it's the only one), than the retreat orders should be given an automatic "Saved" (only "Ready" it for gunboat games). Nobody wants to wait on an order with only one possible move.

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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#16 Post by ChippeRock » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:56 pm

Also, other players shouldn't have to wait 1-2 turns just for a 1-2 SC country who isn't important to be taken over and than eliminated within the year - I understand those countries might play a crucial role in stopping a solo, but in that case you can just force players to wait the 1-2 turns in the game if someone is 4-5 SCs away from a solo and the country in question is within 3 moves of the potential solo-er (i.e., not a 2 SC England in a Turkish solo attempt).

Additionally, the amount of time that players get before they're kicked out of a game should be reduced significantly. If in a 1 day/phase game you haven't submitted orders in the game for 48 hours, there's an extremely small chance to wait another 24 hours for the player to finally CD due to the unexcused missing turn.

Games should try to be fast AND minimize the NMRs! Not just to solely prevent NMRs altogether.

It would probably also be a good idea to make it easier for players to just voluntarily CD (of course it would still count against the RR) - maybe a button or something (or just a notice if the player misses a turn and giving the player an option to drop out of the game), because emailing the mods is too much effort for some people (especially if they're CDing).

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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#17 Post by Restitution » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:40 am

ChippeRock wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:41 pm
Either way, I would MUCH RATHER have the old system back - at least the games were played much faster. I don't feel like waiting 3 days (2 days for the excused + unexcused NMRs, and than another day for the actual phase time) for a game's turn.
Then play without it? Just play in games without excused turns. That's the old system.

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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#18 Post by ChippeRock » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:02 am

Restitution wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:40 am
ChippeRock wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:41 pm
Either way, I would MUCH RATHER have the old system back - at least the games were played much faster. I don't feel like waiting 3 days (2 days for the excused + unexcused NMRs, and than another day for the actual phase time) for a game's turn.
Then play without it? Just play in games without excused turns. That's the old system.
ChippeRock wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:41 pm
And yes, I understand that you can control the reliability of the players in the games - but I'm taking over for people, so I don't have any control over this (and to whomever who tries suggesting that I not take over these games, piss off - I'm just adding my two cents and making sure this view point is represented in this thread).
Additionally, zero excused missing turns isn't the old system - there's still a phase reset.

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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#19 Post by bo_sox48 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:45 am

Kremmen wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:44 am
bo_sox48 wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:27 pm
but for now the prevailing thought is that delaying the game when a player is absent is a better result for the integrity of the game than allowing the turn to process without a power placing orders.
How about the enjoyment of the game? You look forward to playing a turn each day (or whatever your preferred schedule is) and then instead get day after day of nothing. Then you wonder if it's even worth visiting the web site, but have to in order to check if there's actually a turn to make. Instead of something to look forward to, it's just "ho, hum, yet another day of nothing".
I don't know how to reconcile this for you. Your idea of what is fun and what isn't is yours and yours alone. My idea of fun is playing an unbroken game.

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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#20 Post by Nikola Maric Eto » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:20 am

EMT Is the best thing since DMT.

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