Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

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purevital
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#21 Post by purevital » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:09 pm

I like the idea of EMTs.

But my problem is that I usually do the easy moves and save them, planning to go back and look at the more complex situations when I have more time. But once you save a single move it won't use the EMT feature, and it will just progress with those moves and the rest will hold. Thankfully I haven't forgotten yet but it has come close!

ChippeRock
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#22 Post by ChippeRock » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:09 pm

purevital wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:09 pm
I like the idea of EMTs.

But my problem is that I usually do the easy moves and save them, planning to go back and look at the more complex situations when I have more time. But once you save a single move it won't use the EMT feature, and it will just progress with those moves and the rest will hold. Thankfully I haven't forgotten yet but it has come close!
That's why the "Saved" button exists - so it'll still show up on the top bar to remind you there are some orders you might want to change.

Restitution
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#23 Post by Restitution » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:52 pm

I really don't understand the whinging here. The only downside to EMT is in Chaos where it can, in fact, take a week for a turn to process if it's on. But in classic, the game is delayed like, what, 2 or 3 turns max throughout the course of a game?

Much better than it was before, where a large majority of games would have at least one NMR and many would have one or multiple CDs. At which point the game devolves into demanding that people draw or cancel prematurely, and the entire political situation being based around that. Entire game gets ruined in the first turn and I have to sit through it for like a month. Bleh.

This is an amazing change and I'm kind of amazed that there's any backlash whatsoever. Dev team should prooooobably not pay too much attention to the feedback on this forum, lol. Get the feeling there's a huge silent majority who generally like the changes.
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ChippeRock
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#24 Post by ChippeRock » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:59 pm

Restitution wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:52 pm
I really don't understand the whinging here. The only downside to EMT is in Chaos where it can, in fact, take a week for a turn to process if it's on. But in classic, the game is delayed like, what, 2 or 3 turns max throughout the course of a game?

Much better than it was before, where a large majority of games would have at least one NMR and many would have one or multiple CDs. At which point the game devolves into demanding that people draw or cancel prematurely, and the entire political situation being based around that. Entire game gets ruined in the first turn and I have to sit through it for like a month. Bleh.

This is an amazing change and I'm kind of amazed that there's any backlash whatsoever. Dev team should prooooobably not pay too much attention to the feedback on this forum, lol. Get the feeling there's a huge silent majority who generally like the changes.
"2 or 3 turns max"??

Jesus, you're really out of touch with reality.

You might be fine with it in your one game, but playing 20 games dealing with this crap every day isn't fun.

The devs should implement at least some of my suggested changes, because they should be trying to make the games relatively NMR-free AND fast . Not just NMR-free to the point where games are a slog.

Restitution
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#25 Post by Restitution » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:07 pm

ChippeRock wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:59 pm

You might be fine with it in your one game, but playing 20 games dealing with this crap every day isn't fun.
I am playing 6 games. They are just anonymous. It is precisely that I am playing lots of games that it doesn't matter if there is a slight delay.

Yeah, maybe there are better implementations or solutions. But they probably require more work. If you want this so bad, submit the code to change it. WebDiplomacy is open-source.

For now, this change is ten billion times better than the previous. And I am not so neurotic that I get upset if I have to wait an extra day to see the results of my dip games.

ChippeRock
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#26 Post by ChippeRock » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:15 pm

Restitution wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:07 pm
ChippeRock wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:59 pm

You might be fine with it in your one game, but playing 20 games dealing with this crap every day isn't fun.
I am playing 6 games. They are just anonymous. It is precisely that I am playing lots of games that it doesn't matter if there is a slight delay.

Yeah, maybe there are better implementations or solutions. But they probably require more work. If you want this so bad, submit the code to change it. WebDiplomacy is open-source.

For now, this change is ten billion times better than the previous. And I am not so neurotic that I get upset if I have to wait an extra day to see the results of my dip games.
Christ. How many games did you even play in the "old system"?

The majority of NMRs and CDs are from small countries who are about to be eliminated - it's simply unnecessary to delay the game 2 days for those useless countries. If orders haven't been submitted in the 24 hours since they delayed the turn, they're not coming back - why should an additional day go by in order for the country to experience an unexcused missed turn?

We should be emphasizing FAST, mostly NMR-less games. Not slow games without any NMRs at all.

If a country has 3 or less SCs, it's not close to the beginning of the game, and no country is close to a solo, the turn should either just be processed with the NMR or have a shorter delay for waiting for a replacement.

Excused missed turns simply delay the game unnecessarily: only a small percentage of players who NMR (and delay the turn) will come back to enter orders. Older players and those that have played lots of games are more likely to come back (and an excused missed turn makes sense for them), but new players aren't - making the other players wait on a almost-certain CD is completely unnecessary.

Restitution
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#27 Post by Restitution » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:20 pm

ChippeRock wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:15 pm
We should be emphasizing FAST, mostly NMR-less games. Not slow games without any NMRs at all.
If that's so easy to do, submit the code for it. You don't have a right to demand improvements. The fact of the matter is that the current state is better than the previous state. If you think you could improve it more, do so.

If it would be too difficult for you to implement such a change, perhaps it's because it's a difficult problem to solve and the dev team has other shit to work on.
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Restitution
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#28 Post by Restitution » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:30 pm

I can understand being critical of a feature change that made things worse. But this certainly made things better. If you want to improve it more, do so. But you can't just... demand that people put in their free time to make things better for you for a service you don't pay for.
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Senlac
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#29 Post by Senlac » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:34 pm

Restitution wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:07 pm
ChippeRock wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:59 pm

You might be fine with it in your one game, but playing 20 games dealing with this crap every day isn't fun.
I am playing 6 games. They are just anonymous. It is precisely that I am playing lots of games that it doesn't matter if there is a slight delay.

Yeah, maybe there are better implementations or solutions. But they probably require more work. If you want this so bad, submit the code to change it. WebDiplomacy is open-source.

For now, this change is ten billion times better than the previous. And I am not so neurotic that I get upset if I have to wait an extra day to see the results of my dip games.
Yeah, there is a better implementation. Quite a while back PlayDip addressed the same issue creating a concept of “protected game” that works quite well at preventing NMR’s ruining games. I prefer it to the “Excused Missed Turns” concept. However it was still found to slow games down to the extent that it only works well with “reliable” players that don’t or at least rarely NMR.
If I see a “protected game” full of newbies I think twice before considering playing. Especially if it has long turn durations it takes forever once some idiot “surrenders by disappearance”. At least on PlayDip it’s a game option to implement or not, at game creation & the game is thereafter labelled to prevent accidentally joining one if you don’t like that style.
So, no need to reinvent the wheel here, take a look at PlayDip’s implementation.

Friendly Sword
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#30 Post by Friendly Sword » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 pm

Actually in my experience the largest number of NMR's that I remember happened in 1901 and I am thankful for this system for nearly eliminating them.
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pyxxy
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#31 Post by pyxxy » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:05 pm

Restitution wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:20 pm
ChippeRock wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:15 pm
We should be emphasizing FAST, mostly NMR-less games. Not slow games without any NMRs at all.
If that's so easy to do, submit the code for it. You don't have a right to demand improvements. The fact of the matter is that the current state is better than the previous state. If you think you could improve it more, do so.

If it would be too difficult for you to implement such a change, perhaps it's because it's a difficult problem to solve and the dev team has other shit to work on.
Thought experiment, would an additional rating be useful for how often a player CDs in games where their country is eliminated (after they left)?

Using this in addition to a minimum RR when creating a game might make it more likely to get players that are responsive and won't abandon when dead.

Drawback might be that if you can't incentive someone to finish a game to preserve their RR, why would they care about another rating?

But imo worsening your RR seems like an abstract punishment that's mostly about slowly separating players that miss moves away from players that don't, so that the timely and responsive players have a better experience, rather than trying to fix the behavior of missing moves in the first place. To be clear I don't think this is a bad thing, just thinking out loud.

Kremmen
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#32 Post by Kremmen » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:42 pm

bo_sox48 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:45 am
I don't know how to reconcile this for you. Your idea of what is fun and what isn't is yours and yours alone. My idea of fun is playing an unbroken game.
If you think that, then you are simply ignoring the comments in games as people gripe about how much the delays suck.

And now I'm in a game where a player (Blesson) who didn't enter orders last turn has mysteriously been replaced by "webDipDummy00". There's no notification of the player change in Notices on the home page and no mod comments in the game itself. What happens in a few hours when the turn is due (again)? Yet another delay?

Claesar
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#33 Post by Claesar » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:04 pm

Kremmen wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:42 pm
...
And now I'm in a game where a player (Blesson) who didn't enter orders last turn has mysteriously been replaced by "webDipDummy00". There's no notification of the player change in Notices on the home page and no mod comments in the game itself. What happens in a few hours when the turn is due (again)? Yet another delay?
Did you email the mods about this?

Kremmen
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#34 Post by Kremmen » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:20 pm

Claesar wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:04 pm
Did you email the mods about this?
I did, but I don't know when they'll see it, so I commented here as well in case it was some new "feature" I'd missed.

Doug7878
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#35 Post by Doug7878 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:28 pm

I also like the EMT option. We used the default 1 EMT in a game recently, and three different players used the EMT once each. The resulting delays were far superior to the damage to the game if these had been NMRs.
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jmo1121109
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#36 Post by jmo1121109 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:06 pm

Just as a general update, I'm well aware that some people dislike excused delays. When I added them I did provide detailed stats showing why a solution was necessary. Since an average of 3 NMR's a game was ruining a large number of games. Since then the number of games being cancelled due to NMR's has dropped drastically and games aren't impacted nearly as drastically when a replacement comes in as they take over a position that hasn't missed turns. Overall the stats and player feedback are showing the change as an overall win.

That said, there's changes coming to RR for live games, as well as a change sometime soon to limit the time an extend can delay a game to 24 hours per extend regardless of the total phase length. And further down the road will be a game option that will completely remove all delays without allowing NMR's. But as it's a few months out and still in the planning phase so I can't give more details.

If delayed games are going to remove all of the fun you get from the game, then there are other sites that allow NMR's. Those sites in return have some very large negatives like poor cheating prevention, less quality in competition, and DATC errors, but if the only thing that makes the game fun for you is 0 delays then consider checking out one of the alternative sites until we get additional development work done a few months down the line.
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Restitution
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#37 Post by Restitution » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:12 pm

Kremmen wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:42 pm
If you think that, then you are simply ignoring the comments in games as people gripe about how much the delays suck.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_majority

Fandaran
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#38 Post by Fandaran » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:40 pm

Diplomacy games with NMRs are game ruining, and while frustrating to endure delays, NMRs directly degrade the game for everyone except people who directly benefit from it. You would be better off with a cancel than an NMR progressed turn. I do think, unless its already in place, that RR loss should be progressive scaling upon turn length so you are more punitively penalized on conventional 1 day phase games than live / short phase games.
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LeonWalras
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#39 Post by LeonWalras » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:26 am

I don't know how simple it is (it's never simple) to have different defaults for different variants, but a default of 0 excused turns for chaos games would help them along immensely.

Kremmen
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Re: Excused Missed Turns is inefficient ?

#40 Post by Kremmen » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:58 pm

bo_sox48 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:45 am
I don't know how to reconcile this for you. Your idea of what is fun and what isn't is yours and yours alone. My idea of fun is playing an unbroken game.
1) There will always be broken games. In one game I'm in (242303), two of the biggest countries just NMRd. One was replaced by an experienced player. One was replaced by someone with 30 points who then entered all hold orders. The experienced player is now way closer to a solo victory that should never have happened. For all the existing players, both those countries having all-hold orders would have been much less broken!

2) When it comes to preferences, I suggest you perhaps try actually looking at other people's sometime. Here's a set of comments from different players of a single game I was just looking at:
"With all due respect to the mods, it's a thankless job and they do it fantastically. I disagree with this new rule change. If you miss a turn, you should pay the consequences. Everyone else shouldn't have to wait because you forgot to enter your orders. There are ways you can pause a game if you're unable to play for a day or two."

"I also hate - HAAAATE - this new rule change. It is 100% pointless.
If you miss a turn, you miss a turn. Everyone else gains by your apathy, and you suffer, as you should. If you miss too many moves, you get kicked out and go CD."

"Agree with everything said. New rule has been a pain in the a$$ in all my games."

"Yo I’m gonna die before 1995 happens"

"Is this some sort of sick joke?"

That's in an anon AE IV game. (242316) I'm not in it. I have no idea who those people are. I have no vested interest. I'm just pointing out that clearly everyone there is having a miserable time and you just keep pretending that the change is totally positive.

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