[RESOLVED] Muting threads

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ghug
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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#41 Post by ghug » Wed May 16, 2018 5:35 pm

Why would anyone play Diplomacy?

Oct, if political discussion dies off, I'm open to revisiting the discussion. We are legitimately going to be more lenient in moderation of that subforum, and to my eye it seems like this hasn't caused a drop in participation there. People can still find it quite easily.

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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#42 Post by Octavious » Wed May 16, 2018 5:40 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:22 pm
You don't come back to play diplomacy??
Not as much as you might think. A lot of players who have been around a few years go through periods where they go off the game. For many of us the forum was a reason to stick around until the urge to play turned up again.
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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#43 Post by Octavious » Wed May 16, 2018 5:48 pm

ghug wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:35 pm
Why would anyone play Diplomacy?

Oct, if political discussion dies off, I'm open to revisiting the discussion. We are legitimately going to be more lenient in moderation of that subforum, and to my eye it seems like this hasn't caused a drop in participation there. People can still find it quite easily.
Fair enough, ghug. My eye is inclined to disagree, but I'm happy for us waiting for evidence to point one way or the other. I reckon give it a couple of weeks and have another look?

I don't suppose you can give an example of the sort of thing that would be permitted in politics but not elsewhere, could you? Because I really haven't the foggiest idea of what the difference is.

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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#44 Post by ghug » Wed May 16, 2018 5:57 pm

You're allowed to be mean to people again, as long as it's "you're a fucking idiot" or "liberals are the scourge of the earth" and not "I going to visit your mother at 123 Main Street and tell her what an idiot she raised" or "x race is the scourge of the earth".

Is there anything specific beyond those cases that was disallowed at some point and isn't in a clear state to you now?

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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#45 Post by Octavious » Wed May 16, 2018 6:09 pm

Ah, that helps clear that up. I would have thought that such comments would have been considered derogatory and as such in clear violation of rule 5, but you clearly have a more liberal view of what's derogatory than I do :P.

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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#46 Post by jmo1121109 » Wed May 16, 2018 7:14 pm

Honestly oct having people who do development work subjected to your non stop aggressive attacks on their work is absurd. Stop whining about the people doing the work for the site. The decisions on what is allowed code wise is not mine. Only a tin can and kestas can do code reviews and they only allow changes in the owners want and deem beneficial and well written. If a code change goes live, it’s been reviewed and is what the site leadership wants. All you’re doing by attacking people willing to make those changes is hurting the site.
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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#47 Post by flash2015 » Wed May 16, 2018 8:36 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:48 pm
ghug wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:35 pm
Why would anyone play Diplomacy?

Oct, if political discussion dies off, I'm open to revisiting the discussion. We are legitimately going to be more lenient in moderation of that subforum, and to my eye it seems like this hasn't caused a drop in participation there. People can still find it quite easily.
Fair enough, ghug. My eye is inclined to disagree, but I'm happy for us waiting for evidence to point one way or the other. I reckon give it a couple of weeks and have another look?

I don't suppose you can give an example of the sort of thing that would be permitted in politics but not elsewhere, could you? Because I really haven't the foggiest idea of what the difference is.
I really don't understand why people even want to go out of their way to be mean and insulting when talking about politics. What is the point of talking about politics if it isn't to try and better understand other people's opinions or convince other people to change their mind?

I don't know about you but if someone is throwing around labels and insults and calls me names, I am not likely to go away and think "you know what, the guy that insulted me and labeled me an ignorant leftist swj marxist stooge actually has a point!". I am more likely to think that the person throwing around labels and insults does so because they realize that they have a weak argument (or that they don't even understand the issue that they are arguing about). The labels and insults are a "crutch".

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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#48 Post by Octavious » Wed May 16, 2018 8:45 pm

Non stop aggressive attacks? Seriously??

Jmo, I have always respected your abilities and dedication to this place. I think you have about the same level of people skills as a rhinoceros that's just eaten a wasp nest, but that was fine because the game of diplomacy doesn't really attract normal people, and I doubt you could change even if you wanted to.

I am well aware of my flaws, and I can't change either. If my behaviour is now considered to be non stop aggressive attacks you might as well ban me now and put me out of my misery.

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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#49 Post by Octavious » Wed May 16, 2018 8:58 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:36 pm
I really don't understand why people even want to go out of their way to be mean and insulting when talking about politics. What is the point of talking about politics if it isn't to try and better understand other people's opinions or convince other people to change their mind?

I don't know about you but if someone is throwing around labels and insults and calls me names, I am not likely to go away and think "you know what, the guy that insulted me and labeled me an ignorant leftist swj marxist stooge actually has a point!". I am more likely to think that the person throwing around labels and insults does so because they realize that they have a weak argument (or that they don't even understand the issue that they are arguing about). The labels and insults are a "crutch".
They don't, generally. But often when people care deeply about an issue passions can be roused and people may say things in the heat of the moment. To take the abortion debate as an example, a person who genuinely believes that abortion is akin to killing a child can understandable experience frustration and distress from someone arguing in favour of them. If someone on the pro choice side then makes light of their beliefs or mocks them, that can swiftly turn to anger. Ideally it wouldn't happen, but you can't really stop it without either changing human nature or heavily enforcing rules that stifle debate.

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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#50 Post by ghug » Wed May 16, 2018 9:48 pm

Jmo's upset because there's a pattern on this site of villainizing people that put in development time. He's not an admin anymore, he just dedicates a huge amount of his own time to helping us and Zultar accomplish what we ask him to. If he does something you don't like, direct the hate at us. Lord knows bo needs it.
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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#51 Post by jmo1121109 » Wed May 16, 2018 9:50 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:45 pm
Non stop aggressive attacks? Seriously??

Jmo, I have always respected your abilities and dedication to this place. I think you have about the same level of people skills as a rhinoceros that's just eaten a wasp nest, but that was fine because the game of diplomacy doesn't really attract normal people, and I doubt you could change even if you wanted to.

I am well aware of my flaws, and I can't change either. If my behaviour is now considered to be non stop aggressive attacks you might as well ban me now and put me out of my misery.
The shocked surprise anytime anyone calls you out is old. Yes, seriously. The code work that is done is well reviewed and agreed as needed by the site leadership. Calling out specific developers for doing that work just makes it difficult to find people willing to do the work and demotivates (in this case me) those willing to do the work.
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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#52 Post by flash2015 » Wed May 16, 2018 9:55 pm

ghug wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:48 pm
Jmo's upset because there's a pattern on this site of villainizing people that put in development time. He's not an admin anymore, he just dedicates a huge amount of his own time to helping us and Zultar accomplish what we ask him to. If he does something you don't like, direct the hate at us. Lord knows bo needs it.
As a software developer myself, I don't think non-developers truly realize how time consuming software development can be, especially when mixed with setting up environments/integrations/creating test data/running tests etc (the movies get it all wrong where they show everything can be done in 5 minutes). I am really thankful that some people like jmo are willing to spend their free time to make the site better.
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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#53 Post by Octavious » Wed May 16, 2018 10:23 pm

Poppycock. You can't go around saying "I see I urgently need to re-remove the politics thread from the main page to get this fucking drivel out of sight" and then get surprised by people thinking that you were a keen supporter of the idea. If you take it upon yourself to be the biggest cheerleader of a policy that the rest of the site leadership barely mention then it is you who will be associated with it. This isn't a case of the annual meeting of jmo haters anonymous, this is because you picked up the flag of a policy that is another kick in the teeth to those members who enjoy debate, and you ran around waving it whilst telling people who disagreed to shut up.

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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#54 Post by jmo1121109 » Wed May 16, 2018 11:36 pm

Octavious wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:23 pm
Poppycock. You can't go around saying "I see I urgently need to re-remove the politics thread from the main page to get this fucking drivel out of sight" and then get surprised by people thinking that you were a keen supporter of the idea. If you take it upon yourself to be the biggest cheerleader of a policy that the rest of the site leadership barely mention then it is you who will be associated with it. This isn't a case of the annual meeting of jmo haters anonymous, this is because you picked up the flag of a policy that is another kick in the teeth to those members who enjoy debate, and you ran around waving it whilst telling people who disagreed to shut up.
I don't know how I can make it simpler for you understand that I and other developers do not get to make changes that the site leadership didn't ask for. Do I suppose the changes, normally use, but I've also made changes that I do not support. Either way, I submit the code to github and it sits there (in this case for over a month) until someone had time to approve it. But yes, in most cases developers will support their changes.

So let me make it clear, what ghug posted earlier isn't optional, if you do not like the work developers do, you can safely assume it is owner approved and address your concerns at the owners or admins.

Every single development change we have had in the last several years has had someone like you take up the mantle of attacking the dev for their work. That needs to end, and it isn't optional. You have avenues to get concerns addressed, and attacking the devs for it is not one of them.
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Re: [RESOLVED] Muting threads

#55 Post by Telamor » Wed May 16, 2018 11:44 pm

Oct mate I think you've made your point. You, Jamie, and I have all raised our objections to the policy and the mods have explained why it was implemented so let's leave this for a bit and see if it effects participation in the pol forum.
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