Time zones in America

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Expand view Topic review: Time zones in America

Re: Time zones in America

by Senlac » Thu May 23, 2019 12:29 am

flash2015 wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 12:05 am
@Seniac, but you are still saying it is something fundamental to Islam which can't change because Mohammed practiced it. I would disagree. Even Saudi Arabia is moving to eradicate child marriage or at least reduce it:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saud ... SKCN1P42CW

Note that up until this year the Catholic church minimum marriage age was 14 (now the Church is raising it to 16):

https://www.wltz.com/2019/02/22/pope-ra ... holic-law/
I did not realise the Islamic world was making any attempt whatsoever. I’m pleasantly surprised & wish them all possible luck, but won’t hold my breath. At least the intent is an indication of progress, however slight.
I repeat I never claimed this abomination was isolated to Islam. Islam was emphasised solely to illustrate the impossibility of progress, but it appears I may turn out to be wrong there & sincerely hope that’s the case.

Re: Time zones in America

by flash2015 » Thu May 23, 2019 12:05 am

@Seniac, but you are still saying it is something fundamental to Islam which can't change because Mohammed practiced it. I would disagree. Even Saudi Arabia is moving to eradicate child marriage or at least reduce it:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saud ... SKCN1P42CW

Note that up until this year the Catholic church minimum marriage age was 14 (now the Church is raising it to 16):

https://www.wltz.com/2019/02/22/pope-ra ... holic-law/

Re: Time zones in America

by Senlac » Wed May 22, 2019 10:17 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:07 pm
@Seniac, I agree that Jamiet went over the top. But on your specific point about child marriage I don't believe your assertion that it is somehow unique to Islam. It cuts across religious lines - Christians, Muslims and Hindus have adherents which are guilty of it (e.g. as well as being high in the example countries mentioned, child marriage is also prevalent in countries like Ukraine and the Philippines):

https://www.cfr.org/blog/child-marriage-and-religion-0

Another site:

https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/8-child- ... -day-2017/

As well pointing back to the Holy Book I am not sure is really that compelling. The story of the conquest of Palestine by Joshua is a story of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Should I infer that Jews/Christians have a monopoly on these things just because this was glorified in the early books of the Bible?

There is, of course, the argument - why complain about child marriage in the US when child marriage is more prevalent in other countries? I would argue the answer is the same as why you care when your child does something wrong vs when someone's child in another city does something wrong. Or when there was an outpouring of sympathy for the French terror attacks vs. the crickets for terror attacks in Turkey not long before it.

We give the incidents which are closer to us, either culturally, location wise or through family more prominence than those incidents further away. The US also places itself in sort of a world moral guardian role so just by the high standards itself and other countries it is going to receive more criticism when it doesn't appear to be living up to these standards.

Of course, you are right that there is not much we can do. You and Jamiet both live outside the USA...and even though I do live here, I can't vote. It would be nice if Jamie could perhaps discuss something a little closer to home. There is lots of interesting stuff with Brexit going on there (e.g. the recent David Davies interview was a little scary - he is a "Remoaner"??). I am sure we can have a civil discussion on what is happening with Brexit, can't we? :razz:
At no time did I suggest any group, nation or faith monopolised the disgrace of child marriage. That was the main point in my rebuke of Jamiet99uk singling out Idaho. Also the only reason I chose the Islamic adherence to this practise was to emphasise the impossibility of change in the face of the Prophet Mohamed’s splendid example of how to conduct life.
Some things on this earth are glaringly obvious as abhorrent to an individual’s moral code (this is an excellent example) but it isn’t going to change, not only in your lifetime, but probably in 1000+ years. As I say it is what it is. To target one group guilty of the behaviour over & above the millions of others is what I consider reprehensible & I made that point.

Re: Time zones in America

by Jamiet99uk » Wed May 22, 2019 10:09 pm

I don't know what response you expected to your shrugging of the shoulders, Senlac.

This isn't about Muslims, but anyone who has followed this forum knows I am a vocal critic of Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is an evil and murderous regime.

America however likes to present itself as an enlightened country, the home of the free, a shining beacon to the world. Instead it is nothing like that. It is a land where lawmakers defend paedophiles and women have no rights over their own bodies. Disgusting.

Re: Time zones in America

by flash2015 » Wed May 22, 2019 10:07 pm

@Seniac, I agree that Jamiet went over the top. But on your specific point about child marriage I don't believe your assertion that it is somehow unique to Islam. It cuts across religious lines - Christians, Muslims and Hindus have adherents which are guilty of it (e.g. as well as being high in the example countries mentioned, child marriage is also prevalent in countries like Ukraine and the Philippines):

https://www.cfr.org/blog/child-marriage-and-religion-0

Another site:

https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/8-child- ... -day-2017/

As well pointing back to the Holy Book I am not sure is really that compelling. The story of the conquest of Palestine by Joshua is a story of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Should I infer that Jews/Christians have a monopoly on these things just because this was glorified in the early books of the Bible?

There is, of course, the argument - why complain about child marriage in the US when child marriage is more prevalent in other countries? I would argue the answer is the same as why you care when your child does something wrong vs when someone's child in another city does something wrong. Or when there was an outpouring of sympathy for the French terror attacks vs. the crickets for terror attacks in Turkey not long before it.

We give the incidents which are closer to us, either culturally, location wise or through family more prominence than those incidents further away. The US also places itself in sort of a world moral guardian role so just by the high standards itself and other countries it is going to receive more criticism when it doesn't appear to be living up to these standards.

Of course, you are right that there is not much we can do. You and Jamiet both live outside the USA...and even though I do live here, I can't vote. It would be nice if Jamie could perhaps discuss something a little closer to home. There is lots of interesting stuff with Brexit going on there (e.g. the recent David Davies interview was a little scary - he is a "Remoaner"??). I am sure we can have a civil discussion on what is happening with Brexit, can't we? :razz:

Re: Time zones in America

by Senlac » Wed May 22, 2019 8:04 pm

Senlac wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:19 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 4:23 pm
Flash, it's absolutely about paedophilia. Any grown man who impregnates a 10 year old girl is a paedophile. Any lawmaker who thinks that allowing that man to marry the 10 year old girl he impregnates is evil, and a supporter of paedophiles.

And to bring in Senlac's view on this issue: YAY DEMOCRACY! CHILD MARRIAGES, THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE!

Hooray for creepy uncle Cletus and his democratically-defended right to impregnate and marry his 10-year old niece.

Fucking sick.
It’s got nothing to do with Democracy as such. Virtually the entire Muslim world condones child marriages & no one gets to vote on it...
My stand is not a celebration when popular will (by vote counting or otherwise) results in something I view immoral (like child marriages).
It’s just an acknowledgement that I can’t influence it in any way, other than voicing disapproval if asked & being ignored. The Islamic nations aren’t going to change a practise the Prophet Mohamed himself conducted.
My view & your view carry zero weight in Saudi Arabia or Idaho. To be really blunt my opinion carries almost no weight outside my own family & I expect few people even in Durham give a damn what you think on anything either.
My stance is one of realism. It is what it is. Nobody gives a flying fuck what either of us think, especially when we are not even in their community. You misrepresent me I saying I approve of such laws just because a majority in that location happens to approve. I just acknowledge it’s reality & move on.
No response from Jamiet99uk of Durham. I guess child marriage has suddenly become less of an ideological travesty with the discovery it’s commonplace in locations other than Idaho? Fun baiting the Americans, but not PC when it comes to Muslims? Is that the problem? Hurrah for Multicultural UK!

Re: Time zones in America

by Senlac » Wed May 22, 2019 12:19 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 4:23 pm
Flash, it's absolutely about paedophilia. Any grown man who impregnates a 10 year old girl is a paedophile. Any lawmaker who thinks that allowing that man to marry the 10 year old girl he impregnates is evil, and a supporter of paedophiles.

And to bring in Senlac's view on this issue: YAY DEMOCRACY! CHILD MARRIAGES, THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE!

Hooray for creepy uncle Cletus and his democratically-defended right to impregnate and marry his 10-year old niece.

Fucking sick.
It’s got nothing to do with Democracy as such. Virtually the entire Muslim world condones child marriages & no one gets to vote on it...
My stand is not a celebration when popular will (by vote counting or otherwise) results in something I view immoral (like child marriages).
It’s just an acknowledgement that I can’t influence it in any way, other than voicing disapproval if asked & being ignored. The Islamic nations aren’t going to change a practise the Prophet Mohamed himself conducted.
My view & your view carry zero weight in Saudi Arabia or Idaho. To be really blunt my opinion carries almost no weight outside my own family & I expect few people even in Durham give a damn what you think on anything either.
My stance is one of realism. It is what it is. Nobody gives a flying fuck what either of us think, especially when we are not even in their community. You misrepresent me I saying I approve of such laws just because a majority in that location happens to approve. I just acknowledge it’s reality & move on.

Re: Time zones in America

by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 21, 2019 6:08 pm

But clearly all of this is not only democracy in action, but the will of the LORD.

Re: Time zones in America

by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 21, 2019 4:26 pm

Is Congressman Zollinger proposing to abolish marriage licences altogether?

No he is not.

His only priority here was to defend the rights of paedophiles. Sick and evil.

Re: Time zones in America

by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 21, 2019 4:23 pm

Flash, it's absolutely about paedophilia. Any grown man who impregnates a 10 year old girl is a paedophile. Any lawmaker who thinks that allowing that man to marry the 10 year old girl he impregnates is evil, and a supporter of paedophiles.

And to bring in Senlac's view on this issue: YAY DEMOCRACY! CHILD MARRIAGES, THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE!

Hooray for creepy uncle Cletus and his democratically-defended right to impregnate and marry his 10-year old niece.

Fucking sick.

Re: Time zones in America

by flash2015 » Tue May 21, 2019 1:50 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 8:01 am
In more news from evil shithole America, this week the Republican controlled Idaho Congress voted 39-28 to PRESERVE state laws allowing child marriages.

Yep, right wing paedophilia is alive and well in Idaho.
I didn't know this! I had to look it up. It though isn't about paedophilia. It is about teenage pregnancy. Idaho Republicans believe that the right of the unborn child to be brought up by a married couple trump any rights of the pregnant child which could be as young as 10 or 11:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfe ... riage.html

It is amazing the cognitive dissonance that some lawmakers show:

“I do not think courts should be involved in marriage at all,” said Bryan Zollinger, R-Idaho Falls. “I don’t believe there should be a license required to get married. I think two willing people should be able to go and get married.”

Does he not know that the recognition of marriage by the state IS a legal construct?

Having said that, whilst I don't believe this policy is right, I don't believe we achieve anything by branding those that do agree with it evil then lumping half the population of the US in with these people via guilt by association. Whilst it may be very satisfying to do that, I don't believe it is helpful in changing anyone's opinion...if anything it hardens those opinions and makes it harder to get these things changed.

Re: Time zones in America

by Jamiet99uk » Tue May 21, 2019 8:01 am

In more news from evil shithole America, this week the Republican controlled Idaho Congress voted 39-28 to PRESERVE state laws allowing child marriages.

Yep, right wing paedophilia is alive and well in Idaho.

Re: Time zones in America

by Senlac » Mon May 20, 2019 11:32 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:47 pm
No, Senlac. Not when the outcome is women being controlled and oppressed by fascists. I can't "accept that" and "move on" and it's sick that you think people should. When a cause is just and worthwhile, what you do is you keep fighting.
Fair enough. I’m too old to “fight” for causes now. I’ll make the case...
Democracy as usually implemented stinks in most countries.
Environmental damage to the world at the current rate is unacceptable.
There are circumstances (not all) when I personally believe abortion justified.

I’ll happily give a reasoned argument for all premises I believe, but fight the cause, no more. I found as a young person it only lead to frustration & never victory. I always moved on.
Applied & got residency 4 times in different countries since leaving UK. The reason was always a different version of “the current way of society is unacceptable to me”. I can’t change it, I’ll leave. Excessive Restrictions, or Violence, total banality, you name it, I’ve hated it & left it.
However if you prefer to stay and fight, I do wish you all the luck in the world, Best Regards Senlac

Re: Time zones in America

by Jamiet99uk » Mon May 20, 2019 10:47 pm

No, Senlac. Not when the outcome is women being controlled and oppressed by fascists. I can't "accept that" and "move on" and it's sick that you think people should. When a cause is just and worthwhile, what you do is you keep fighting.

Re: Time zones in America

by Senlac » Mon May 20, 2019 9:24 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:16 pm
Senlac wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:41 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:24 pm


Yeah, but my point here is that Alabama's lawmakers are hypocrites who clearly do not care about saving the life of every foetus - their principal aim is to police and control women's bodies because patriarchy.
Just to bring a touch of reality to this debate I doubt the above is anywhere close to “their principal aim”. Remember we are talking about politicians here & they only ever have one “principal aim”, re-election.
I don’t know Alabama but if the majority of the electorate object to the abortion laws as they stand (most probably) then the first principle of a democracy is that the legislature has to act to correct the discrepancy, otherwise a different legislature will do so for them, after the next election.
I know this issue is always discussed on a “fundamental human rights” type basis, but it never works because it’s so confrontational & no one ever agrees. It has to be resolved on the democratic consensus & the losers must live with the outcome. That’s the way Western societies work, for good or ill.
No. No, becuase they get the votes by saying "abortion is bad, fuh fuh fuh, it makes Jesus cry, a vote for me is the vote the Bible told you to cast", but most of their voters don't read the small print. I bet you a large number of Republican voters in Alabama didn't pore over the details of the debate and didn't consider the hypocrisy of the Alamaba Republicans' position on foetuses in IVF clinics. Democracy in most Western countries is a sick joke.
Yep, it’s a very sick joke in my opinion too, but we have not managed anything better in most cases. What you say about voter ignorance is very plausible, but again makes no difference. It is what it is.
We don’t live in utopias, there are decision making systems in place (sometimes very old ones) & we use them. Don’t like a particular outcome? Tough, if the majority does, live with it & move on.

Re: Time zones in America

by Jamiet99uk » Mon May 20, 2019 9:16 pm

Senlac wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:41 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:24 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:01 pm


To be fair here, many anti-abortion activists also believe in-vitro fertilization is wrong too. That there is a contradiction here by lawmakers is probably a GOOD thing. I don't want them to try and ban that too.
Yeah, but my point here is that Alabama's lawmakers are hypocrites who clearly do not care about saving the life of every foetus - their principal aim is to police and control women's bodies because patriarchy.
Just to bring a touch of reality to this debate I doubt the above is anywhere close to “their principal aim”. Remember we are talking about politicians here & they only ever have one “principal aim”, re-election.
I don’t know Alabama but if the majority of the electorate object to the abortion laws as they stand (most probably) then the first principle of a democracy is that the legislature has to act to correct the discrepancy, otherwise a different legislature will do so for them, after the next election.
I know this issue is always discussed on a “fundamental human rights” type basis, but it never works because it’s so confrontational & no one ever agrees. It has to be resolved on the democratic consensus & the losers must live with the outcome. That’s the way Western societies work, for good or ill.
No. No, becuase they get the votes by saying "abortion is bad, fuh fuh fuh, it makes Jesus cry, a vote for me is the vote the Bible told you to cast", but most of their voters don't read the small print. I bet you a large number of Republican voters in Alabama didn't pore over the details of the debate and didn't consider the hypocrisy of the Alamaba Republicans' position on foetuses in IVF clinics. Democracy in most Western countries is a sick joke.

Re: Time zones in America

by Randomizer » Mon May 20, 2019 9:09 pm

Meanwhile since the Alabama and now Missouri laws have no rape exemptions, rapists will have an additional protection that their victims lack of parental rights:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rapis ... d-support/

Re: Time zones in America

by Senlac » Mon May 20, 2019 6:41 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:24 pm
flash2015 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:01 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:10 am

So there you go. It's not really about the "baby". It's not really about the embryo. IT'S ABOUT CONTROLLING WOMEN'S BODIES. And that is why this evil shit must be opposed.
To be fair here, many anti-abortion activists also believe in-vitro fertilization is wrong too. That there is a contradiction here by lawmakers is probably a GOOD thing. I don't want them to try and ban that too.
Yeah, but my point here is that Alabama's lawmakers are hypocrites who clearly do not care about saving the life of every foetus - their principal aim is to police and control women's bodies because patriarchy.
Just to bring a touch of reality to this debate I doubt the above is anywhere close to “their principal aim”. Remember we are talking about politicians here & they only ever have one “principal aim”, re-election.
I don’t know Alabama but if the majority of the electorate object to the abortion laws as they stand (most probably) then the first principle of a democracy is that the legislature has to act to correct the discrepancy, otherwise a different legislature will do so for them, after the next election.
I know this issue is always discussed on a “fundamental human rights” type basis, but it never works because it’s so confrontational & no one ever agrees. It has to be resolved on the democratic consensus & the losers must live with the outcome. That’s the way Western societies work, for good or ill.

Re: Time zones in America

by Jamiet99uk » Mon May 20, 2019 4:08 pm

Over in Oklahoma in 2017, you had this deeply evil shit saying women are merely "hosts" for foetuses, with no right to bodily autonomy.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressi ... dw9TqJTS1k

Seriously fucked up evil shit.

Re: Time zones in America

by Jamiet99uk » Mon May 20, 2019 2:24 pm

flash2015 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:01 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:10 am

So there you go. It's not really about the "baby". It's not really about the embryo. IT'S ABOUT CONTROLLING WOMEN'S BODIES. And that is why this evil shit must be opposed.
To be fair here, many anti-abortion activists also believe in-vitro fertilization is wrong too. That there is a contradiction here by lawmakers is probably a GOOD thing. I don't want them to try and ban that too.
Yeah, but my point here is that Alabama's lawmakers are hypocrites who clearly do not care about saving the life of every foetus - their principal aim is to police and control women's bodies because patriarchy.

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