Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

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Expand view Topic review: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Stressedlines » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:42 pm

Judaism conversion numbers are reallllly low. I was speaking in a more general.sense. since medical reports break them out for fenetic tests i am going to assume this is a good indicator that they are mostly i habing the same general genepool

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Randomizer » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:43 pm

Baskineli wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:45 am
This is wrong. I am a secular jew. I don't believe in God. Am I not a jew if I am not religious?

The same word, "jew", describes two different things. One thing is a religious affinity, the other is nationality.
For those who are born a Jew, unless you formally convert to another religion, you are still a Jew. Being a secular Jew means not being observant about some religious aspects.

Legally in Israel you are still considered a Jew by birth. Nationality is your legal citizenship. It has nothing to do with your religion unless you are applying for citizenship from outside Israel where it's a condition for getting it automatically.

Some other countries have similar provisions, for instance Ireland does it for descendants of Ireland returning there that are citizens of other countries.


Jewish converts can become citizens as regular Jews if they meet the legal standard on how they were converted. The Orthodox religious parties got that enacted as a condition of supporting coalition governments back in the early days.

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Baskineli » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:33 pm

Telamor wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:03 pm
Baskineli can correct me if I'm wrong but I think converts abroad aren't eligible for Israeli citizenship. You have to be ethnically Jewish.
Frankly, I don't know.

Not a lot of people convert to Judaism. The ones who do, usually convert because of a spouse, and then they can gain citizenship because they are married to a citizen.

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Telamor » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:03 pm

Baskineli can correct me if I'm wrong but I think converts abroad aren't eligible for Israeli citizenship. You have to be ethnically Jewish.

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Baskineli » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:37 am

Stressedlines wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:27 am
Radom has a point, somewhat. There is such a thing as Jewish DNA, but the problem lies in the fact that there is also Jews who converted, and thus dont have that DNA

If you doubt me, go to any OB/GYN in the country, and take that T21 test for your baby to test for abnormalities. There is a few boxes you can check One of them is very clearly Ashkenazi jew

Also listed is African American (for sickle cell)
Ds
and a few others I cant remember, but the tests are VERY clearly identifying genetic markers of specific groups
No, he is wrong.

An arab who believes in Jesus is christian arab.
An arab who believes in Allah is muslim arab.
An arab who believes in jewish god is jewish arab (not much of them).

About converted jews - they convert into religion, not into ethnicity. You cannot change your genes.

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Baskineli » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:45 am

Randomizer wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:11 pm
Being a Jew is a religion not an ethnicity.

You don't call being a Christian an ethnicity? You wouldn't call Catholics in the
Vatican City an ethnic group. If the Muslim population in the Vatican increased due to refugees from Africa, would you demand that some cathedrals be converted to mosques?
This is wrong. I am a secular jew. I don't believe in God. Am I not a jew if I am not religious?

The same word, "jew", describes two different things. One thing is a religious affinity, the other is nationality.

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Stressedlines » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:27 am

Radom has a point, somewhat. There is such a thing as Jewish DNA, but the problem lies in the fact that there is also Jews who converted, and thus dont have that DNA

If you doubt me, go to any OB/GYN in the country, and take that T21 test for your baby to test for abnormalities. There is a few boxes you can check One of them is very clearly Ashkenazi jew

Also listed is African American (for sickle cell)
Ds
and a few others I cant remember, but the tests are VERY clearly identifying genetic markers of specific groups

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Randomizer » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:11 pm

Being a Jew is a religion not an ethnicity.

You don't call being a Christian an ethnicity? You wouldn't call Catholics in the
Vatican City an ethnic group. If the Muslim population in the Vatican increased due to refugees from Africa, would you demand that some cathedrals be converted to mosques?

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Baskineli » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:52 pm

Telamor wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:48 pm
How would you define who is and is not a Jew? Because as far as I can see using ethnicity rather than citizenship as the defining quality of right to self determination you are creating an ethnic hierarchy that devalues those not of your choice ethnicity.

It doesn't matter how I define Jewish (there is no single definition acceptable by all), because being a Jewish citizen in Israel does not give you any additional rights and being a Druze citizen in Israel does not take from you any rights. ALL CITIZENS are equal.

It is a Jewish state, so Saturday is the rest day, while Sunday is a normal work day. This is the meaning of Jewish state. However, every non-Jewish citizen may choose the rest day according to his religion and discrimination based on ethnicity is forbidden by law.

It matters if you are a Druze or a Jew that lives in the US and DOES NOT HAVE an Israeli citizenship. A jew may apply to become Israeli citizen on being a jewish base. A druze cannot apply to become Israeli citizen on being a druze base (there are other bases). This is the meaning of Jewish (or Japanese) state.

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Telamor » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:48 pm

How would you define who is and is not a Jew? Because as far as I can see using ethnicity rather than citizenship as the defining quality of right to self determination you are creating an ethnic hierarchy that devalues those not of your choice ethnicity.

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Baskineli » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:17 am

Telamor wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:40 am
To being things back on to topic then Baskelli do you believe Arabs in Israel do not deserve the right to self determination?

It's not self determination. It's NATIONAL self determination. It is not a civil right that applies to a single person.

"The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people".

Yes, since Israel was created as a Jewish state, no other nationality has the right for national self determination in Israel. IE, Arabs can't proclaim it being an Arab state.

This is not different from many other countries. Jews can't proclaim Japan is a Jewish state, Mexicans can't proclaim China is a Mexican state and Russians can't proclaim Mongolia is a Russian state.

It does not mean that that a Jew in Japan who became Japanese citizen, will have less rights than other Japanese citizens.

Israel being a Jewish country, does not imply that Arabs or Druze that have Israeli citizenship, have less rights than Jewish citizens of Israel.

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Telamor » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:40 am

To being things back on to topic then Baskelli do you believe Arabs in Israel do not deserve the right to self determination?

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Baskineli » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:58 am

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:46 pm
Baskinelli, do you recognise Gaza and the West Bank as foreign countries?
Is this discussion about Gaza and West Bank, or about "Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel"?

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Stressedlines » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:26 pm

Jamie. He said he did. However he also said start a new thread on that topic. The topic of this thread was about a law. I think you started the thread

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Jamiet99uk » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:31 pm

Hello Baskinelli, when did your name change to ssorenn?

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:10 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:46 pm
Baskinelli, do you recognise Gaza and the West Bank as foreign countries?
Nope

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Jamiet99uk » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:46 pm

Baskinelli, do you recognise Gaza and the West Bank as foreign countries?

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Baskineli » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:42 pm

You really have to understand that not everything in Israel has to do with Palestinians. You really have to understand that there are more than just Jewish citizens in Israel, and most of them are not Palestinian citizens. A lot of them are not even Arabs (such as Druze).

Israel was created as a Jewish state. It is in the UN declaration, it is in our Declaration of Independence.

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Baskineli » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:21 pm

Telamor wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:04 pm
Baskineli wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:08 am
We can continue to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a new thread.

Please understand that the issue that opened the thread has nothing to do with this conflict. It is an internal Israeli issue and people opposing this basic law are Israeli Arabs and Druze (for different reasons as well).
The declaration, the legal ratification of Israel's position as an ethnostate, has everything to do with the conflict. Calling it an internal Israeli issue and trying to exclude the West Bank and Gaza when both are occupied by Israel is ridiculous.
Israel is ethnostate by UN decision since 1948, just like Palestine is ethnostate by exactly the same UN resolution.

The law in discussion does not apply to Palestinian citizens, since this is an Israeli law.

Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

by Telamor » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:04 pm

Baskineli wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:08 am
We can continue to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a new thread.

Please understand that the issue that opened the thread has nothing to do with this conflict. It is an internal Israeli issue and people opposing this basic law are Israeli Arabs and Druze (for different reasons as well).
The declaration, the legal ratification of Israel's position as an ethnostate, has everything to do with the conflict. Calling it an internal Israeli issue and trying to exclude the West Bank and Gaza when both are occupied by Israel is ridiculous.

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