Why did God create Covid-19?

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Expand view Topic review: Why did God create Covid-19?

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by MajorMitchell » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:32 am

I like this thread. I've only read page one and page five, Genisis and then skilled to this page as it might be characterised. I will return and read all pages when I have time. I recently attended the local Christadelphian Church "discuss the meaning of the Scriptures" night and in April had fifteen minutes pounding away at the dying Gardener with CPR caper on my own pleading with God JC HG in absolutely humble honesty making the rash request that I be thrown into Hell for Eternity if JC could persuade God & HG to breathe life back into the poor dying Gardener Chap, he died.
So now I'm asking JC HG God for a lighter sentence in Purgatory playing golf with Cousin Andy and with my old mate & Caddy the human elephant from New Zealand I call Ganesh in a team against Lucifer trying to win souls back for Team JC. I'm asking for Andy and myself to have Celestial Golf clubs with a dose of Holy Ghost spirit and when Ganesh spots Lucifer cheating he has to cop the penalty strokes Ganesh knows should added to his score.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Le Plume » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:40 am

Thanks for reading.
Well, i was playing a bit of the devil's advocate, earlier, in extrapolating evil god.
Asking why evil god would create a virus is straightforward when compared to good God. Moreso when compared to Christian god. Cause Christian God is supposed to love us, despite biblical events which seem like punishment. Contradictory...
I am wondering if it is alright to be angry with god, to blame, or castigate him. Or to express anger in prayer. So instead of asking why God creates Covid, I am asking what are justifiable human reactions to God creating Covid? or something like that.

I think this conversation gets extended in the Job thread.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Crazy Anglican » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:48 am

Le Plume wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:16 am
Sure. Thanks for asking. I posted to give an example of how Christians react to things like plagues and things like the current virus. I think a prayer can demonstrate this. You are right that a more recent prayer would reflect present beliefs. So why do I like the older prayer?

1. I am just interested in older ways of thinking, and this prayer was the example I had handy. Like you are saying, we have germ theory. And I'd mention physicians and anti-biotics. For awhile it seemed like none of these health advances mattered in the face of the Covid-19 pandemic and disease. So I asked how did people pray before we had terms like 'pandemic' and 'outbreak', and found this prayer.
That seems perfectly reasonable, I hadn't really thought of it from that perspective.
Le Plume wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:16 am
2. Reading the prayer reminds of the grave situation we are in. Where I am located I am not really exposed to the virus. I don't see the damage it is doing. Maybe this prayer can help me have a larger scope of mind when I think about the virus. For example, the prayer gives two historical examples of plagues. The writer doesn't do this to displace the gravity of whatever present situation the prayer may address. Rather, any grievous sickness or plague that ever takes place is as important to God as some of the most significant biblical events. That's how I see the current event as mediated by this prayer.
good point
Le Plume wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:16 am
3. My reading sees the writer doing something like holding God to account. I can't quite find the right analogy. Its like the writers cites two precedents of God accepting an 'atonement' and removing a plague. The writer trusts that this can happen again; that it is God's nature to accept prayers of forgiveness and then act.
I guess its just me who reads it in a way that holds God to account. The idea of someone who tries to convince god of something is powerful to me. A quick example is when Abraham tries to get God to spare a city from destruction. It takes gumption to address God.
No, I think I misunderstood you initially. I read it as blaming God and you seem to see it as an interaction with God. I don't really disagree. I think that is what is being expressed there.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Le Plume » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:16 am

Sure. Thanks for asking. I posted to give an example of how Christians react to things like plagues and things like the current virus. I think a prayer can demonstrate this. You are right that a more recent prayer would reflect present beliefs. So why do I like the older prayer?

1. I am just interested in older ways of thinking, and this prayer was the example I had handy. Like you are saying, we have germ theory. And I'd mention physicians and anti-biotics. For awhile it seemed like none of these health advances mattered in the face of the Covid-19 pandemic and disease. So I asked how did people pray before we had terms like 'pandemic' and 'outbreak', and found this prayer.
2. Reading the prayer reminds of the grave situation we are in. Where I am located I am not really exposed to the virus. I don't see the damage it is doing. Maybe this prayer can help me have a larger scope of mind when I think about the virus. For example, the prayer gives two historical examples of plagues. The writer doesn't do this to displace the gravity of whatever present situation the prayer may address. Rather, any grievous sickness or plague that ever takes place is as important to God as some of the most significant biblical events. That's how I see the current event as mediated by this prayer.
3. My reading sees the writer doing something like holding God to account. I can't quite find the right analogy. Its like the writers cites two precedents of God accepting an 'atonement' and removing a plague. The writer trusts that this can happen again; that it is God's nature to accept prayers of forgiveness and then act.
I guess its just me who reads it in a way that holds God to account. The idea of someone who tries to convince god of something is powerful to me. A quick example is when Abraham tries to get God to spare a city from destruction. It takes gumption to address God.

4. The destroying angel. I find the image of a destroying angel terrifying. I can only imagine the writer includes it because England had just come out of the 20 years of commonwealth and death was on everyone's mind. I don't think I actually like the destroying angel. Too creepy.

I haven't gone to church sure since January, but I am sure no one uses this old prayer, with or without its destroying angel. Nonetheless, I thought it would add to the thread. Why?

The older prayer is foreign to us. Not just in terms of Covid, but in all matters of health. For example, if someone has cancer, they shouldn't think God is punishing them. If I visit a friend with cancer and they say they are being punished for having stolen apples from a store, I would probably say, "i get that you feel guilty, but its not your fault."

Yet for some reason, despite knowledge in biology and chemistry, people attach meaning to things that happen to them.
I missed the bus, therefore God has plan for me to go wait if that coffee shop and fall in love with the first person I see.
Or, if you do good things, good things will happen to you. Conversely, if you do wrong things, bad things will happen to you.
Call it superstition, serendipity, or karma. A lot of people think this way, believers and non-believers alike.

We know that God did not create Covid-19 to punish us. I haven't seen anybody say this about the Covid-19 virus as a matter of belief. However, there are the darwinists who say its Mother Earth's way of taken humans down a notch. There are the social critics and activists who can articulate all the injustices which are move visible than ever, as a result of the virus. And, I wonder how much fear of the virus there is, superstitious or otherwise, and if people have a feelings similar to punishment when exposed to the virus or effects of the pandemic. I think the older prayer expresses this tendency to personalize the events around us. At the same time, it gets us to think past them. We admit to being sinners, but confirm being members of something larger. It validates the feelings of fear, but pushes you into a frame where you are free from the fear and superstition.

I mean that's what I would like it do... ;)

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Crazy Anglican » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:02 pm

Hi LePlume,

We are reading the same prayers, right? Because I see nothing holding God accountable in this one. True, they do see God as the cause for pestilence and reason that it is because they have transgressed in some way. They also recall earlier times when similar diseases were seen in similar ways. In what way are they castigating God? They simply are not doing that. They lived in a world where the only thing anyone could do was wait for the disease to pass, and they prayed to God for that time to come. They saw Him as both the cause and the cure for their misery.
In the Time of Any Common Plague or Sickness
O Almighty God, who in thy wrath did send a plague upon thine own people in the wilderness, for their obstinate rebellion against Moses and Aaron; and also, in the time of king David, didst slay with the plague of Pestilence threescore and ten thousand, and yet remembering thy mercy didst save the rest; Have pity upon us miserable sinners, who now are visited with great sickness and mortality; that like as thou didst then accept of an atonement, and didst command the destroying Angel to cease from punishing, so it may now please thee to withdraw from us this plague and grievous sickness; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Now what happened in the time that elapsed between these two prayers from the same Anglican communion? It was Germ Theory, of course. So, in the second prayer they see God as a source of help and no longer the source of the disease. Some people imagine an enmity between science and religion. I don’t see anything of the kind in this instance. Here it allows us to see God as the Righteous Being that I believe Him to be.
O most mighty and merciful God, in this time of grievous sickness, we flee unto thee for succor. Deliver us, we beseech thee, from our peril; give strength and skill to all those who minister to the sick; prosper the means made use of for their cure; and grant that, perceiving how frail and uncertain our life is, we may apply our hearts unto that heavenly wisdom which leadeth to eternal life; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. (1928 BCP, 45).
I am curious as to why you prefer the first prayer to the second? Isn’t it better for all to have a more up to date understanding to the way that the world works?

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Le Plume » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:57 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:41 am

Because they were superstitious and ignorant.
And possibly afraid.

I like this older prayer because its like they are holding god to account.

Today it might sound like this, in as few as words as possible,
"God these are things you've done before. You have the power to create these things, and then take them away. You created this deadly virus, so you have the power to take it away. So please do."

Fear, superstition, ignorance, but also pezazz.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Crazy Anglican » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:21 pm

No worries, take your time.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Jamiet99uk » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:57 am

Crazy Anglican wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:55 pm
@ Jamiet99uk

I believe your challenge was a coherent answer to your question. I think I've done that. My counter-challenge is in what way has my answer been incoherent? I am curious about your response. As to Job or any other points of Scripture, I'll be happy to explain what I can to you over pm's if you would like.
Hi CA,

I don't necessarily think your answers have been incoherent. I need a little time to consider your responses in detail and I'll let you know my thoughts. It's something that requires careful thinking so bear with me.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Crazy Anglican » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:55 pm

@ Jamiet99uk

I believe your challenge was a coherent answer to your question. I think I've done that. My counter-challenge is in what way has my answer been incoherent? I am curious about your response. As to Job or any other points of Scripture, I'll be happy to explain what I can to you over pm's if you would like.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Octavious » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:34 pm

It depends on how you look at it, I guess. I know what I'd believe if I believed, in much the same way as someone who has lost their faith would know what they used to believe even though they no longer believe it. If I had a road to Damascus moment then that is it. There's no possibility in me becoming, for example, a devout Catholic, an Evangelical, or a Muslim.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Jamiet99uk » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:38 pm

@Octavious: Thank you but I was asking CA, because I am interested in his viewpoint. I know you don't believe in God so are viewing it from a very different viewpoint to him.

I would however also be interested if those who *do* have strong Christian faith would comment on Octavious's assertion that it is ok to pick and choose which bits of the Bible you believe, and discard any parts of the bible you think are irrelevant.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Octavious » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:23 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:07 pm
Crazy Anglican wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:17 pm

Also, for me and most of the Christians I have spoken with, the “God's testing me” idea doesn't ring true. Yes, life sends us good and bad. In my view, God is no proctor standing passively by writing on a clipboard (which would be neutral not evil, so props on moving the God needle in the right direction). Still it is implicit in the Christian worldview that God sends aid as well. Again, according to Scripture, He calls us to love and serve one another. Whatever your reason for doing good in the world, I applaud you. This is my reason I do not think anyone can really say that it is incoherent.
Thank you for your answers so far. The world seems very different to me, than it appears to seem to you, but your remarks are interesting.

With regard to the idea of God "testing" people, what is your view on the Book of Job? As I read it (and yes, I have read it), the Book of Job is a story in which God and Satan engage in a deeply unpleasant wager, which then sees Satan, with God's explicitly stated approval, torture Job and murder his family and friends, just to see if he remains faithful to God after such abuse.

Pretty fucked up if you ask me. But what's your take on that one?
Let's assume for a moment that God exists and the Bible is indeed a holy book intended to be a means of communication. In that case it will have to be a book that speaks to you, that provides meaning. Not just you, of course, but also someone in a village in America, or a city in Africa, or a renaissance scientist, or a Viking invader, or a child in the late Roman empire, or indeed an engineer on a deep space research ship several hundred years into the future. These people will lead massively different lives, yet the same book needs to speak to all of them with a message relevant to them.

And so different parts of the book resonate with different people, and different people interpret bits of it in different ways. To us the Book of Job sounds like crazed nonsense, but our experience and sense of morality flags this up as crazed nonsense and so we know instinctively not to be guided by it. Other people with another background may see in it a completely different message to the one we see, and it may well be that that message is important to them.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by orathaic » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:45 pm

Again, according to Scripture, He calls us to love and serve one another. Whatever your reason for doing good in the world, I applaud you. This is my reason I do not think anyone can really say that it is incoherent
I have completely different justifications for this position. And if I refer to any scripture I used to call on 'making a Kingdom of heaven on earth' as the eventual goal.

Make this world a better place for humans to live in, 'doing good', I don't know what that is, but listening to others who don't have the same advantages as we do, and trying to make a better world for everyone. Because I want to live in a world which is better for everyone (entirely selfish motives by that measure. But also consistent, and I have no scriptures to fall back on).

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Jamiet99uk » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:07 pm

Crazy Anglican wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:17 pm

Also, for me and most of the Christians I have spoken with, the “God's testing me” idea doesn't ring true. Yes, life sends us good and bad. In my view, God is no proctor standing passively by writing on a clipboard (which would be neutral not evil, so props on moving the God needle in the right direction). Still it is implicit in the Christian worldview that God sends aid as well. Again, according to Scripture, He calls us to love and serve one another. Whatever your reason for doing good in the world, I applaud you. This is my reason I do not think anyone can really say that it is incoherent.
Thank you for your answers so far. The world seems very different to me, than it appears to seem to you, but your remarks are interesting.

With regard to the idea of God "testing" people, what is your view on the Book of Job? As I read it (and yes, I have read it), the Book of Job is a story in which God and Satan engage in a deeply unpleasant wager, which then sees Satan, with God's explicitly stated approval, torture Job and murder his family and friends, just to see if he remains faithful to God after such abuse.

Pretty fucked up if you ask me. But what's your take on that one?

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Octavious » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:43 pm

A rather fun concept I heard a while back was God only creates one human soul per universe and that soul lives every life within it. Every Jamie, Trump, Hitler, Ghandi etc is the same spiritual being with different starting conditions. Everybody's universe is unique to them, and all that's good and evil from humanity in that universe stems from them. The idea being that this essentially is the eternal life and whether it is heavenly or hellish is ultimately a function of you.

Complete tosh, of course, but rather enjoyable. And one imagines that the world would be a better place if it was an idea that was widely believed.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Crazy Anglican » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:17 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:41 pm
What reason do you have for believing there is an "afterlife"? I have never encountered any evidence for the existence of such a place.
Crazy Anglican wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:22 am
I thought I answered this.
Largely the Christian stance is to say. “We all will die, yes, but on the testimony of Jesus Christ we have the promise of eternal life”. Now there is a huge discussion to be had about why that testimony is or isn’t trustworthy. Since we are talking about [the coherency of the] Christian worldview though and not the reliability of Christ as a saviour; then the only relevant question should be “Is this consistent within the framework of Christianity?”. Your request was for a coherent answer (I read that as internally consistent with little direct evidence to the contrary, but if your definition is different please let me know). So yeah, God promises an afterlife that can be pretty groovy, but that’s not the whole picture.
As to evidence, I guess it comes down to what you accept as evidence. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence for near death experience, etc. I don't personally put a lot of stock in them, but they are there.
Historical evidence:

Could Christ have known what he was talking about in promising eternal life?

Yes, because of His resurrection.

Why do I believe the resurrection took place?

Many eyewitness testimonies to it from people who had little to gain and much to lose by speaking up. No reliable testimony from the time that refutes it. Letters from all the way up to the emperor (Trajan) basically say "If they refute Christianity, let them off" and still people who would know they were lying went to death unnecessarily. Remember these were people who believed in an afterlife and their God did not take kindly to blasphemy. They left their homes, jobs, and even families to spread a lie that would not benefit them in any material way and would actually hurt them in this life and the next? I don't see this as likely with not a single one of them recanting even decades later. As far as cold case files go, this one seems pretty good.
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:41 pm

If an eternal afterlife of joy awaits us, what is the purpose of the temporary, difficult, painful material world we currently inhabit? Is it merely a game created by God to test us?
You want me to tell you the meaning of life? Wow, you don't mess around when you ask sidebar questions do you? My initial response is that on a global level I don't know.

I will say that I don't share your view of this world being entirely difficult and painful. I truly believe that an omniscient and omnipotent being could do a whole lot worse than this world. That is if it were evil and malicious. Read any dystopian fiction novel and you generally have an idea of how things could go, and those are human made miseries.
Also, for me and most of the Christians I have spoken with, the “God's testing me” idea doesn't ring true. Yes, life sends us good and bad. In my view, God is no proctor standing passively by writing on a clipboard (which would be neutral not evil, so props on moving the God needle in the right direction). Still it is implicit in the Christian worldview that God sends aid as well. Again, according to Scripture, He calls us to love and serve one another. Whatever your reason for doing good in the world, I applaud you. This is my reason I do not think anyone can really say that it is incoherent.

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Jamiet99uk » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:41 pm

Crazy Anglican wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:22 am
Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:00 pm
there's an afterlife so it will all be fine and God's evil behaviour in this world doesn't matter because he can make it better in heaven?
Wow, you are pretty far off there. No that’s not my claim at all. The afterlife part of the equation is central to most Christian doctrine, sure, but the “God’s evil behaviour” part is a wild extrapolation brought on by your own argument and has nothing to do with my own.

Humans are not immortal, and we will all face death as far as we know.

There is a simple question that isn’t loaded one way or the other. I think we can agree that humans are not immortal under those terms.
Largely the Christian stance is to say. “We all will die, yes, but on the testimony of Jesus Christ we have the promise of eternal life”. Now there is a huge discussion to be had about why that testimony is or isn’t trustworthy. Since we are talking about Christian worldview though and not the reliability of Christ as a saviour; then the only relevant question should be “Is this consistent within the framework of Christianity?”. Your request was for a coherent answer (I read that as internally consistent with little direct evidence to the contrary, but if your definition is different please let me know). So yeah, God promises an afterlife that can be pretty groovy, but that’s not the whole picture.
As Christians, we presume the existence of God who promises eternal life and who created earth that humans were never meant to survive on for long. What of death? I suppose it is tempting to say God is personally responsible for each death no matter how peaceful, tragic, painful, heroic, or lonely. Is there a kernel of truth there? Maybe. He does seem to have designed a world where we will all die one day, so death does seem to be part of His plan. Is designing a world where people will die and move on to another life evil? No, it certainly isn’t an act of evil. At least it seems to work since we’re both here having this little talk. Simply put, an omnipotent and omniscient being bent on causing death and destruction could have quite a better job of it. That is if He were evil and malicious. So, the next step is a curious one.
Then we go to the next step that simply isn’t logical. Why did God design this or that thing (black widow spiders, cobras, leukemia, covid-19, etc.) simply to cause death? I don’t simply disagree with it; it isn’t a logical statement. There are at last two assumptions that are made that cannot be reliably known by you. God’s will in creating something, and the then the reason for that thing’s existence. It’s like saying If God exists, He created dogs to bite us. Therefore, He must be evil because bad things happen, blah, blah, blah. It’s too narrow. It presumes too much for a very specific reason. Certainly it is what I have surmised form reading your posts, s if I am misrepresenting you I am open to your setting the record straight. Do you have reliable means of deriving the motives for a being you “cannot conceive of” and speaking about seems “utter gibberish” to you?
As a Christian, I emphasis on the gospels, He expects us to take care of one another and love one another within the framework of this world that wasn’t designed to support us eternally anyway. Do you really suppose that among the teachers, doctors, nurses, policemen, and all of the other essential workers that there aren’t a fair few Christians willingly putting their lives on the line daily to help others as God commands? (You might say that I am co-opting human good for God’s glory, but I am one of those teachers; and I know why I am there). I acknowledge many others who do the same work for different reasons. I wouldn’t presume to call any of them mad simply because I didn’t understand their rationale for doing good in the world.
I have a number of questions in response to this.

What reason do you have for believing there is an "afterlife"? I have never encountered any evidence for the existence of such a place.

If an eternal afterlife of joy awaits us, what is the purpose of the temporary, difficult, painful material world we currently inhabit? Is it merely a game created by God to test us?

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by principians » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:53 pm

@fluminator it depends what exactly you mean by ”seeing things and knowing things they shouldn't have been able to see after projecting". When i said astral projection is hallucination i don't mean it's bogus. It's a very specific brain state. Kind of a dream phase that not everyone, but quite a lot of people can achieve. But there's no further mistery. It's just your brain making you 'see' things

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by orathaic » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:29 pm

@Fulminator, it would take me significant evidence before I believed the mind could exist beyond the brain. We have so much data on how the brain functions, and how damage to it impairs that function (because there is very little human experimentation, and thus nearly all the studies are on accidents, and the rare split brain procedure for extreme medication resistant epilepsy).

@brainbomb, are you saying your concept of God created the problem so humans would be tested and create a vaccine?

Re: Why did God create Covid-19?

by Octavious » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:38 pm

And Justin Bieber... Swings and roundabouts...

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