https://www.yahoo.com/news/leaked-audio-lawyers-praised-beauty-083045504.html

Police can claim legal and justified actions as long as they can find a lawyer to issue a legal opinion, not law or a legal case, in their support. This is what Bush did in using torture on terrorism suspects and why Trump listens to the bush lawyer that gave that opinion.

[quote=orathaic post_id=167095 time=1596375402 user_id=64]
See, I would entirely disagree. Violence by the state can be justified if it is in self-defence (or defence of others, I'm just fed up writing this additional bit).
[/quote]

It's quite an important addition though. It expands what you consider acceptable circumstances for violence massively. Of course you are simply outlining a case in which state violence is acceptable (I agree) without specifying where it isn't. You also haven't, unless I've missed it somewhere, stated the circumstances where you consider violence by the citizen to be acceptable.

The state oversteps itself when it breaks its own established rules for using force.

At least in the US military forces can't be used against civilians without a pre-existing state of emergency.

It varies with local jurisdiction, but police forces have rules on what they can do and most of the complaints are that the rules were knowingly violated:
Choke holds can be used, but how they are applied and for how long are regulated.
Rubber bullets can be used as a non-lethal, but they are fired at the same velocity as regular ammunition so they are supposed to be aimed at the ground to bounce at their targets to lessen the impact. The current lawsuits are that officers fired directly at the victims' heads causing skull fractures and hitting eyes.
Other lawsuits are attacking lawful peaceful 1st Amendment protests with force and in the Lafayette Trump photo op the order to disperse wasn't heard beyond 20 feet.

Every criminal withdraws their consent, ora. It's irrelevant. It is society at large provides consent. Individuals or small groups do not carry much weight. Violent left wing extremists, even less so.

[quote=orathaic post_id=167095 time=1596375402 user_id=64]
Presuming you don't agree, let me ask you this.
At what point do you believe the state has overstepped itself? What limits do you think should be placed on state actors to prevent the situation devolving into civil strife?
[/quote]

My own personal line in the sand, you mean? I have no fixed line in mind. I don't think anyone has, nor is it reasonable or desirable to have one. But I do know that wherever that personal line in the sand happens to be, the UK is currently lightyears away from it.

See, I would entirely disagree. Violence by the state can be justified if it is in self-defence (or defence of others, I'm just fed up writing this additional bit).

The common justification for police violence is that they are trying to prevent other people from coming to harm. That is why there has been some concensus around the use of violence by the state.

But you admit societies come to some concensus. How do you think that happens? What do you think happens when consent is withdrawn? When the concensus changes?

This is precisely what these protests are about. BLM is about protecting Black Lives which are not being protected by the state.

I don't know what concensus means to you, but it is clear that these protesters have withdrawn their consent to the kind of policing their communities have faced. A new concensus is needs. It may be possible to reform policing, or produce community based solutions within individual cities and counties in the US. It is not possible to do that while the Federal Govt sends in troops* and attacks people.

Presuming you don't agree, let me ask you this.
At what point do you believe the state has overstepped itself? What limits do you think should be placed on state actors to prevent the situation devolving into civil strife?

*dressed and armed like military combatants. But without name tags or identifaction, so they can abuse their power without facing personal consequences.

Very well, we shall take violence to have its traditional meaning without any of the left wing gobshite additions.

No, I do not agree that violence is only justifiable in self defence.

In terms of what justifies violence, it is the consensus of society. Different societies have achieved different consensuses (consensi?) across the globe, but they are broadly similar in that they tend to give the greater weight of the responsibility to use violence to the national institutions that serve them rather than the individual, although there is a range of circumstances in which individual violence is permitted. This is all arbitered by the legal system.

The violence from the state we have witnessed overwhelmingly falls within this consensus, whereas the violence from the protesters tends to fall outside it. The state is acting on our behalf with the powers we have given them. The protesters are acting on their own agenda using whatever actions they see fit and with little regard to anyone else.

You are the one who criticised specific examples you had in mind of protester violence. I presume property damage, vandalism, perhaps resisting arrest, throwing rocks at law enforcement.

On the other side there are specific examples, pushing a man who then hit his head on the ground. Shooting people with tear gas canisters and I suspect rubber bullets.

I'm not trying to trap you here. Specific acts of physical violence have occurred, this is not in dispute. You don't seem interested in an honest discussion.

Again, you're going to need to define violence before I engage in this argument. The left at various times expands their definition to include rudeness or even being quiet, so it makes sense to underline what definition of violence you're using this week before I respond.

OK Octavious, you object to violence from protesters, but approve of it from the state. What justifies one but not the other?

As I am never sure what your definition of violence is I doubt it is possible to answer your question. Come to think of it, I'm not entirely sure about your definition of self defense either.

'BLM thugs' - it is not thuggishness to stand up for yourself when the state discriminates against you.

@Octavious, do you agree that violence is only justifiable in self defence?

[quote=Jamiet99uk post_id=166877 time=1596241634 user_id=137]
Laugh it up, Octavious. Laugh it up.

I understand you are laughing. Because you're winning. You and your nationalist, right-wing pals are winning. Hard-won rights are being eroded and racist, homophobic regimes and fronts are gaining power across Europe and the Western world. I am sure you are very happy about that.
[/quote]

It's not often that you come across as stupid, Jamie. Ignorant and bigoted, increasingly so, but not stupid. And yet today you are managing it.

I am not a Trump supporter. If I was a Yank with the ability to vote in the US election I would not vote for Trump. I am not a fan of his domestic policies or his style. I do not believe he is the 2nd coming of Hitler, as you seem to, but that doesn't make me a fan.

That doesn't make me a Biden supporter either, of course. In the last election I would have held my nose and voted for Clinton, despite her many flaws, as she at least gave the impression she'd achieve something. Biden has yet to convince me he can achieve anything.

As for the rise of the extreme right in the EU, I would have thought that my posts attacking them would have given a small hint about where I stand. Just because I see antifa and the BLM leadership as the extremist thugs they are, doesn't mean I'm desperate to join the National Front.

This is not a fight between too opposing sides for the future of the West. This is a fight by the centre against a resurgence of the lunatic fringe. A fringe that it increasingly appears you're a member of.

[quote=Jamiet99uk post_id=166877 time=1596241634 user_id=137]
Laugh it up, Octavious. Laugh it up.

I understand you are laughing. Because you're winning. You and your nationalist, right-wing pals are winning. Hard-won rights are being eroded and racist, homophobic regimes and fronts are gaining power across Europe and the Western world. I am sure you are very happy about that.
[/quote]

Let's reevaluate in about 94 days from now. I don't know about you but I am ready to settle :razz: :

https://www.settleforbiden.org/

Laugh it up, Octavious. Laugh it up.

I understand you are laughing. Because you're winning. You and your nationalist, right-wing pals are winning. Hard-won rights are being eroded and racist, homophobic regimes and fronts are gaining power across Europe and the Western world. I am sure you are very happy about that.

But nowhere near as amusing as the inner child found this...

https://www.facebook.com/618885201/posts/10158293563945202/

[quote=Jamiet99uk post_id=166769 time=1596154955 user_id=137]
My name is Jamie the T
[/quote]

The inner child found this very amusing :razz:

[quote=orathaic post_id=166811 time=1596206885 user_id=64]
Anti fá, and terrorism: https://antifainternational.tumblr.com/post/625163392866566144/is-antifa-technically-an-organization-or-does-it/amp
Glad to see someone else agree with me on the use of violence in politics. Lovely to see them point out that all politics involves violence.
[/quote]

I don't understand why we emphasize this. Have you lost faith in democracy? Shouldn't violence be an absolute last resort? What do you think will be achieved? If a Nazi gets punched do you really expect them to say "you know what, thanks for showing me the error of my ways, I will be better in the future"? In reality it does the exact opposite. It hardens their opinions and makes them stronger.

The underlying rise of these groups is due to underlying societal problems (e.g. like the hollowing out of manufacturing jobs)...and these far right groups are the ones saying "we have the solution". The right way to undermine them is to provide better solutions to these underlying problems...rather than violent confrontation. We effectively send the message that we don't care about their issues...which again makes these far-right groups stronger.

Finally, history has shown that civil unrest gives rise to authoritarians (Trump is an authoritarian wanna-be). I fear that instead of actually defeating these groups we are actually giving them a path to victory.

Anti fá, and terrorism: https://antifainternational.tumblr.com/post/625163392866566144/is-antifa-technically-an-organization-or-does-it/amp
Glad to see someone else agree with me on the use of violence in politics. Lovely to see them point out that all politics involves violence.

[quote=Octavious post_id=166383 time=1596003462 user_id=71]
[quote=Jamiet99uk post_id=166317 time=1595977976 user_id=137]
[quote=Octavious post_id=166096 time=1595716919 user_id=71]
Lol! Is that the stage you've reached? Everything that you don't agree with is harmful? The next step is to declare all opposing political views racist or sexist, and make voting for people who represent those views a hate crime, and your journey towards totalitarianism will be complete.
[/quote]

The stage [u]you[/u] have reached is to wire in on every anti-Trump post and say "I don't support Trump but" and then attack the post.

For someone who doesn't support Trump you spend a lot of time rallying against anyone who criticises him, or the nationalist right in general.

If I said you were more in favour of Trump than against him, I am confident I would be [i]in the general direction of the truth,[/i] as someone once said.
[/quote]

You'd be wide of the mark as usual.

If you spent as much time making ludicrous attacks on Germany or France as you did America you'd find me pointing out the flaws in those arguments just as enthusiastically, much as I did with your bigoted attacks on the Catholic Church. But you will insist on dedicating most of your bile in the direction of the US.
[/quote]

I did not make any "bigoted attacks" on the Catholic church, but whatever.

All religions are based on nonsense. There is no God, the world was not made by magic in seven days, Eve was not made from Adam's rib, Noah was not 1,000 years old, Muhammad did not split the moon in two, etcetera. All major religious institutions exist to control people, to preserve and exert their power, and to make money.

I have nothing against individual followers of the Catholic Church, although it concerns me that they are being coerced or misled into participating in a mass hallucination that a magic sky wizard is regulating their morals. I do object to the oppressive and counter-progressive role of the Catholic Church in oppressing women and forcing them to remain in abusive relationships, to say nothing of the institutionalised sexual abuse of children that has been rife within that sinister organisation for many years.

This makes me a sensible person who is capable of interacting with reality, not a bigot.

As for Germany, France, and the USA? The USA has for much of my lifetime been the world's only superpower, although I remember (with, in retrospect, some sadness) the fall of the USSR and I am witnessing the rise of China. The USA during most of that time has been a dramatic force for evil across the globe, murdering and pillaging in the name of capitalism and "American interests" and causing untold death and suffering in many places.

France and Germany are not blameless either but have tended to be much more reasonable regimes leaving a somewhat lighter footprint on the world and taking better care of their citizens.

Trump is a figurehead for small-minded nationalists and proto-fascists (and, y'know, actual fascists) and his entire movement must be resisted, fought and struck down. I therefore do not, and will not, apologise for talking about his fucking shit and pointing out what a liar, charlatan, cheat and asshole he is. Just as Octavious will continue to demonstrate which side he is on.

My name is Jamie the T and I endorse this message.

[quote=Octavious post_id=166603 time=1596068722 user_id=71]
[quote=orathaic post_id=166511 time=1596056921 user_id=64]
Excellent descriptor: https://eand.co/america-is-having-the-mother-of-all-social-collapses-1cac9aac0d17?source=social.fb&gi=b5d3358a2745
[/quote]

Lol! Where do you find this shite?
[/quote]

In the echoy Chambers of social media, this stuff which reconfirm my views finds me.