It's Okay To Be White

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Expand view Topic review: It's Okay To Be White

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by leon1122 » Fri May 04, 2018 5:15 am

I will add that it is an act of white supremacy in and of itself to say that a such a uniquely white idea is better than the nationalism prevalent in the rest of the world.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by leon1122 » Fri May 04, 2018 5:04 am

shigzeo wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:04 am
The truth of the matter is that most people around the world, in most countries, subscribe to nationalistic if not racial tribalism. It's only in the West that the opposite is even thrashed about. I've had the joy to live in two specifically racialist countries: Japan and South Korea, the latter being a bit more explicit in the contempt it holds toward other nations.

I wonder if in the West it is even possible to hold a nuanced view of race, nation, state, rights, and tribalism. Because the truth isn't the purview of the left. Or the right. To everyone asserting that America is a white supremacist place, or that People of Colour are absurdly persecuted and are slumped because of it, I'd caution you to read/listen/watch the arguments/discussions of conservative People of Colour and not their sound bytes dissected by progressives or members of your team.
Exactly, shizgeo. Ethnic nationalism is the norm in almost every nonwhite country. Only in the West is there this single-minded pursuit of multiculturalism even at the expense of the majority race, yet somehow liberals are always finding new ways to invent oppression. Like you I've had the privilege of living in my ancestral homeland (China), and the contrast in racial attitudes when I came back to the US was absurd.


In any case, it's clear that having a frank and honest discussion on the topic of race/ethnicity is impossible on this forum, so this will be my last post on the issue. If I do post about it again, I hope someone will remind me of this promise here today.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by CroakandDagger » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:41 pm

spartan445 wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:07 pm
CroakandDagger wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:46 am
Sanders and Corbyn are certainly much closer to communism than Powell is to fascism or racism.
On Bernie Sanders: <Snip> Your characterization of his ideology being close to communism is grossly inaccurate.
I think you've gotten the wrong end of the stick here. To clarify, I said that Sanders is closer to Communism than Powell was to racism or fascism. Even if you prove beyond a doubt that he is no Communist, that does not invalidate my statement. He is in favour of progressive socialist policies - while Powell was nothing of the sort regarding fascist ones.
spartan445 wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:07 pm
Now to be clear, I have not said that you are a right-winger, or crazy, or any of the other things people have said to you.
I appreciate it.
spartan445 wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:07 pm
However,
... oh, there's more.

spartan445 wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:07 pm
However, I do think you are using your platform, most likely intentionally, to misrepresent history and ideology to make your points.
I resent the suggestion that I would ever intentionally misrepresent something. The main reason I am so furious with the mainstream media these days is because they are so cavalier with the truth, caring little for the actual facts of a situation, only what supports the narrative they are being paid to report.
spartan445 wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:07 pm
In the American Alt-Right, they try to say things like "Blacks are inherently more sociopathic" by pointing out crime statistics while failing to recognize the deep complexities of the Black experience in the United States, and deliberately ignoring the same sociopathic tendencies exhibited by people working in the cutthroat world of business, which is predominantly white.
I've not heard that one. I have heard the theory that blacks are predisposed towards violence because on average their testosterone levels are somewhat higher than other races, but I can't vouch for the veracity of that.
spartan445 wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:07 pm
I think you consider yourself an intellectual person who "looks at the evidence" before coming to conclusions, but you've already made the conclusions
I don't think that's the case. But i'll have to review the evidence first and get back to you.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by spartan445 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:07 pm

CroakandDagger wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:46 am
Powell is a historical figure who has received much of the same slander as Farage. People listen to what others say about him, and the media smears have become almost the whole of the way he is perceived.

Sanders and Corbyn are certainly much closer to communism than Powell is to fascism or racism.
On Bernie Sanders: He campaigns for an actively capitalistic, yet aggressively inclusive, society. While it is one in which workers earn the wages they deserve, through federal protections of labor unions and living wages, it is still inherently capitalistic. His policies simply make the capitalistic system truly free. In his idyllic system, the government does not take over corporations, but mediates, generally taking the side of the workers over the owners, while letting corporate entities keep their autonomy. Should a company treat their workers fairly, all is well. Should they not, they get hit with fines or regulatory oversight until they get their act together. In short, if you have power, you're beholden to the powerless. Your characterization of his ideology being close to communism is grossly inaccurate.

Under a truly communist system, the government seizes the means of production. Bernie has stated multiple times that he does not, and has never done that. As one of the few politicians who has been praised for his consistency, and not to mention a nearly 80% approval rating in his home state of Vermont, I think it's safe to say that he's not a communist. If somebody truly fits a label of communist in the United States, you're done. It's as bad as, if not worse than, being labeled a Nazi.

Now to be clear, I have not said that you are a right-winger, or crazy, or any of the other things people have said to you. However, I do think you are using your platform, most likely intentionally, to misrepresent history and ideology to make your points. This often happens in pseudo-intellectual movements, where they distort the evidence and cherry-pick facts to support their worldview. In the American Alt-Right, they try to say things like "Blacks are inherently more sociopathic" by pointing out crime statistics while failing to recognize the deep complexities of the Black experience in the United States, and deliberately ignoring the same sociopathic tendencies exhibited by people working in the cutthroat world of business, which is predominantly white.

I think you consider yourself an intellectual person who "looks at the evidence" before coming to conclusions, but you've already made the conclusions and cherry-pick evidence to support that, and if evidence, journalistic, scientific, or otherwise arrives to prove you wrong, it's part of the leftist media, despite the fact that a pair of oil magnates funded the most recent study on climate change (in the U.S. anyways) and despite being explicitly funded by people who would be overjoyed to learn that human-influenced climate change is a hoax, the scientists found the opposite to be true.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by Incrementalist » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:50 am

Ogion wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:27 am
Totally disingenuous to say he is anything other than an ordinary right winger.
Once someone is labeled as a "right winger", what does that mean? It's like some kind of political "scarlet letter".

Policies aren't immoral because they're "right-wing, end-of-discussion"; they're immoral because they're unfair, such as Powell's opposition to equal treatment on the basis of race.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by Ogion » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:27 am

Kamojo, the kind of racism Croak so freely displays is the sina qua non of right wing status. there's basically no other element to it. Totally disingenuous to say he is anything other than an ordinary right winger. Nothing about him suggests otherwise, frankly. The racism is pretty much the end of the analysis

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by CroakandDagger » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:46 am

Powell is a historical figure who has received much of the same slander as Farage. People listen to what others say about him, and the media smears have become almost the whole of the way he is perceived.

Sanders and Corbyn are certainly much closer to communism than Powell is to fascism or racism.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by KamojoDragon » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:25 am

Honestly, when people like Peterson, Rubin and Sargon are all branded as far-right, you don't have a chance in hell of convincing anyone that you're not far-right, CroakandDagger.
It's just a tribal "other" label slapped on you because you don't subscribe to the orthodoxy.
However, defending Powell while claiming to be left-libertarian is a little dubious, regardless of the fact that it does not necessitate you being some secret Fascist any more than defending Bernie Sanders or Jeremy Corbin would label you as a Communist.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by KamojoDragon » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:17 am

peterwiggin wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:30 pm
Trump definitely has political or ethical values. They mostly involve things like preventing brown people from coming into the country or taking out full-page ads in the NYT calling for the execution of innocent black people.
The Poe is strong with this one.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by CroakandDagger » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:59 am

It was not a foregone conclusion that immigrant workers invited after the second world war ought to be awarded British Citizenship or even permanent residency.

I will concede that they were more deserving than many modern immigrants - but I will also insist that the flippancy with which national citizenship is now treated is a dangerous trend that severely devalues it and damages the social fabric.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by Incrementalist » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:54 am

CroakandDagger wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:37 am
A person's essential humanity does not entitle them to citizenship of any nation they arbitrarily choose.
True, but Powell opposed policies that protected legal residents and citizens already in the country. At that point it is no longer a question of immigration, but of social status, which is relevant to a person's essential humanity.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by CroakandDagger » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:37 am

I apologise if I appear to be being short with any of you - I am trying to respond to the points of several people without cherrypicking, strawmanning or resorting to crude insults.
Kingdroid wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:48 am
dawg, you're *already* on the fringes
I'm really not. I'm actually a very reasonable person, all things considered.
spartan445 wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:51 am
That's not what I said and you know it.
How else should people interpret being shown the door?
Telamor wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:55 am
He argues that racism and discrimination should be legal.
Wrong. That's a misconception born of your surface level understanding of the legislation being discussed at the time.
Telamor wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:55 am
he was wrong about the rivers of blood
Spoken like someone who has never lost a loved one to an immigrant gang.
Telamor wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:55 am
"the Black man" does not "hold the whip hand over the white man"
Yes, he does. Increasingly vague hate crime legislation infringes increasingly on the rights of that native population - people can be prosecuted if their actions are merely perceived as motivated by bias - their intent and the context of their particular situation has been judged not to matter.
Incrementalist wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:06 am
Actions speak louder than words, and with regard to essential humanity, what action could speak more clearly than excluding a category of people from physical proximity based on their ancestry?
A person's essential humanity does not entitle them to citizenship of any nation they arbitrarily choose.
Kingdroid wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:22 am
Keep in mind that Croak is *left-leaning* and a *libertarian*, so even if everything he says squares with being a far right authoritarian, the fact that he says he's not totally defeats any argument stating as such.
You have still failed to name a single one of my positions that is right wing or authoritarian.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by Kingdroid » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:22 am

Keep in mind that Croak is *left-leaning* and a *libertarian*, so even if everything he says squares with being a far right authoritarian, the fact that he says he's not totally defeats any argument stating as such.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by Incrementalist » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:06 am

Croak,

Your choice of Enoch Powell does not square with your assertion that the far right does not deny the essential humanity of anyone.

Actions speak louder than words, and with regard to essential humanity, what action could speak more clearly than excluding a category of people from physical proximity based on their ancestry?

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by Telamor » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:55 am

Croak man, Enoch was decidedly racist. Have you ever read his rivers of blood speech? He argues that racism and discrimination should be legal. As far as Powell's being a genius is concerned he was wrong about the rivers of blood. There hasn't been a race war and the native population hasn't engaged in the mass slaughter of immigrants. Honestly the man was wrong about a lot of things, we haven't descended into civil war, "the Black man" does not "hold the whip hand over the white man", Gorbachev's policy of rapprochement did not lead to the collapse of US diplomatic influence, and the reunification of Germany hasn't forced Britain into allying with Russia. He was plainly and simply wrong. The man was simply racist.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by spartan445 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:51 am

CroakandDagger wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:25 am
"People I don't agree with should fuck off."
That's not what I said and you know it.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by Kingdroid » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:48 am

CroakandDagger wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:25 am
"People I don't agree with should fuck off."

Now, I can appreciate where that sentiment comes from, spartan, but frankly I think that mindset contributes to the radicalisation of the fringes of our society. I certainly don't want to be radicalised, which is why I try to engage with as many people of differing opinions as I can - as politely as I can. They will often call me names for expressing my thoughts, but if they fail to address my very real concerns, refuse to engage with my arguments and fall back upon simple personal attacks all that happens is that I end up being further convinced that they have no substantive arguments and would rather sling mud than admit that they have conceded.
dawg, you're *already* on the fringes

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by CroakandDagger » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:25 am

"People I don't agree with should fuck off."

Now, I can appreciate where that sentiment comes from, spartan, but frankly I think that mindset contributes to the radicalisation of the fringes of our society. I certainly don't want to be radicalised, which is why I try to engage with as many people of differing opinions as I can - as politely as I can. They will often call me names for expressing my thoughts, but if they fail to address my very real concerns, refuse to engage with my arguments and fall back upon simple personal attacks all that happens is that I end up being further convinced that they have no substantive arguments and would rather sling mud than admit that they have conceded.

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by spartan445 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:14 am

CroakandDagger wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:36 am
You two are so desperate to see the world in black and white that you refuse to acknowledge nuance.

Ogion, you have deliberately overlooked that people who are slandered as "far right" today are not nearly as bad as the nazis or the neo-nazi skinheads of decades ago.

Jamiet, I suspect that you slander a great man and bona fide genius without knowing the first thing about him - only what you've been told by people who hate him.
I disagree. From what I've seen from your posts, you've been using the fact that you don't trust those in charge to express views commonly held by right-wing extremists.

I understand you're British, so this particular comic won't necessarily apply to you, but it most certainly applies to this discussion.

https://xkcd.com/1357/

Re: It's Okay To Be White

by CroakandDagger » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:36 am

You two are so desperate to see the world in black and white that you refuse to acknowledge nuance.

Ogion, you have deliberately overlooked that people who are slandered as "far right" today are not nearly as bad as the nazis or the neo-nazi skinheads of decades ago.

Jamiet, I suspect that you slander a great man and bona fide genius without knowing the first thing about him - only what you've been told by people who hate him.

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