Unhide mafia

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Expand view Topic review: Unhide mafia

Re: Unhide mafia

by Fluminator » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:51 pm

I think whatever happened in that game is well beyond hope of salvaging relationships and not worth their effort, but I endorse implementing rules to stop toxicity for future games so these situations don't happen again.

Re: Unhide mafia [HIDDEN]

by worcej » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:02 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:57 pm
Please can you stop having this argument while there is a Mafia game ongoing?
Also, didn't bring it into that thread to begin with... not sure why it was...

Re: Unhide mafia

by worcej » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:02 pm

Lol @ the 'unhide mafia' is now a hidden thread.

Re: Unhide mafia [HIDDEN]

by worcej » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:01 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:57 pm
Please can you stop having this argument while there is a Mafia game ongoing?
This has nothing to do with the active game in a content perspective, so no.
Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:47 pm
worcej wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:45 pm
Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:41 pm
So you can't be offended if a white person uses the n word against you if you as a black person says the n word? Like what

Ok worcej, I just can't deal with you, please stop addressing me thanks
There's a lot more context to why that word is used how it is today that you are purposely omitting with this counter example.

Taking that example away - yeah, you shouldn't call people names if you don't like being called them back.
I don't call you names worcej! In fact I actively avoid talking to you as much as possible!! If you've never heard friends refer to each other as bitxhes you're living under a rock, and it's not at all the same as using it the way you used it. If you don't understand this I can't help you.
Actually, yes you have - you have called me an asshole and have labeled me as a misogynist. The first is on par with your recent use and the later is far more serious.

Re: Unhide mafia [HIDDEN]

by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:57 pm

Please can you stop having this argument while there is a Mafia game ongoing?

Re: Unhide mafia

by Durga » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:47 pm

worcej wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:45 pm
Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:41 pm
So you can't be offended if a white person uses the n word against you if you as a black person says the n word? Like what

Ok worcej, I just can't deal with you, please stop addressing me thanks
There's a lot more context to why that word is used how it is today that you are purposely omitting with this counter example.

Taking that example away - yeah, you shouldn't call people names if you don't like being called them back.
I don't call you names worcej! In fact I actively avoid talking to you as much as possible!! If you've never heard friends refer to each other as bitxhes you're living under a rock, and it's not at all the same as using it the way you used it. If you don't understand this I can't help you.

Re: Unhide mafia

by worcej » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:45 pm

Simply put - we shouldn't name call. The end.

Re: Unhide mafia

by worcej » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:45 pm

Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:41 pm
So you can't be offended if a white person uses the n word against you if you as a black person says the n word? Like what

Ok worcej, I just can't deal with you, please stop addressing me thanks
There's a lot more context to why that word is used how it is today that you are purposely omitting with this counter example.

Taking that example away - yeah, you shouldn't call people names if you don't like being called them back.

Re: Unhide mafia

by Durga » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:41 pm

So you can't be offended if a white person uses the n word against you if you as a black person says the n word? Like what

Ok worcej, I just can't deal with you, please stop addressing me thanks

Re: Unhide mafia

by worcej » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:41 pm

Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:34 pm
I also recommend PMing Tom with any complaints as opposed to starting fights on public forums regarding ongoing games 🙄
This isn't a fight and has nothing to actively do with the current game.

You asked for the game to be unhidden. I am expressing my opinion that the lack of self-reflection and ability to self-police is why we cannot be unhidden. Additionally, when some members do actually commit wrong-doing, they are unable to own up to their mistakes and do not try to make amends, kicking the can down the road per-say.

Re: Unhide mafia

by damo666 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:39 pm

Please hide this thread.

Re: Unhide mafia

by worcej » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:38 pm

Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:30 pm
worcej wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:27 pm
Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:19 pm
Lmao I said that in reference to ghug and HR who are my dear friends... Why are you talking about an ongoing mafia game outside of the thread...
I am talking about it only because it explicitly applies to why our games are hidden.

I don't care if you're friends with ghug or HR, it's unacceptable that I was admonished for using the word and you think you can just use it yourself.
You called me a bitch because you admit you hate me.

It's not the use of the word, I use the word when I talk to my friends all the time, it's all about context. It is NOT acceptable to call me that word with vitriol which is what you did. It was offensive. Go ahead and ask them if they were offended by my use of it towards them.
No, I called you that *because* you were acting incredibly rude and overbearing to someone for no reason. It had nothing to do with 'hating you' that I called you that, it was literally me summarizing your actions in a fast way. Me disliking you contributed to the necessity of calling you out for the behavior. There is a big difference between these.

Back on point - You cannot be offended by being called a word and use it yourself at other people - this is hypocrisy. If it's offensive to be called that word, in any way, then you should not be calling others the same thing. By using it how you just did, it provides context to people, like myself, to use it in regards to yourself how we see fit.

Re: Unhide mafia

by Durga » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:34 pm

I also recommend PMing Tom with any complaints as opposed to starting fights on public forums regarding ongoing games 🙄

Re: Unhide mafia

by Durga » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:30 pm

worcej wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:27 pm
Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:19 pm
Lmao I said that in reference to ghug and HR who are my dear friends... Why are you talking about an ongoing mafia game outside of the thread...
I am talking about it only because it explicitly applies to why our games are hidden.

I don't care if you're friends with ghug or HR, it's unacceptable that I was admonished for using the word and you think you can just use it yourself.
You called me a bitch because you admit you hate me.

It's not the use of the word, I use the word when I talk to my friends all the time, it's all about context. It is NOT acceptable to call me that word with vitriol which is what you did. It was offensive. Go ahead and ask them if they were offended by my use of it towards them.

Re: Unhide mafia

by worcej » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:27 pm

Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:19 pm
Lmao I said that in reference to ghug and HR who are my dear friends... Why are you talking about an ongoing mafia game outside of the thread...
I am talking about it only because it explicitly applies to why our games are hidden.

I don't care if you're friends with ghug or HR, it's unacceptable that I was admonished for using the word and you think you can just use it yourself.

Re: Unhide mafia

by Chaqa » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:23 pm

IMO the mafia culture had improved markedly over the last few years.

It hasn’t been toxic until the last few games.

The cause of this I will leave to everyone’s judgment.

Re: Unhide mafia

by Durga » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:20 pm

Why can't we remove people for questionable behaviour instead of hiding the thread..? If anyone crosses a line regarding the site rules they should be warned and then silenced if it continues instead of having the thread hidden.

Re: Unhide mafia

by Durga » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:19 pm

Lmao I said that in reference to ghug and HR who are my dear friends... Why are you talking about an ongoing mafia game outside of the thread...

Re: Unhide mafia

by worcej » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:09 pm

Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:14 pm
I have a lot of issues with what you're saying darg, and think you're absolutely painting this unfairly, but I'll leave it. There's nothing wrong with the current game but I don't have the energy to convince you to not make things inconvenient for what is probably like 50% of the forum use. I understand hiding it if things got bad, but pre-emptively hiding it seems just silly.
I was going to just keep quiet, but seeing this I feel compelled to respond.

Durga - Is darg's painting of the situation really unfair? Yes, you were attacked and called the B word and you didn't deserve those actions and received a wealth of apologies for it.

You know what I got? I was the subject of numerous personal attacks by the other parties involved in this incident. The items that I found to be over the line are the following:
  1. The offensive and baseless accusation that I am a misogynist and when I asked for an explanation on what specifically was this behavior, I never got the explanation and the request was completely ignored. It's been ~4 weeks since I asked for more details in an attempt to understand my behavior, and having received no really feedback from the offended party, I am of the opinion to label the accusation as baseless.
  2. The reference to the condition of my relationship with my wife, notably in a negative manner
  3. The continued snarky and provoking comments made at me after we were requested to ‘cool off’ in the name of the game and the lack of any understanding on how
  4. The ‘+1’s to negative jokes and references towards me, indicating support for said inappropriate behavior being carried out towards me
  5. The continued jokes and references about myself when I was no longer able to defend myself after I had been removed from the game, which was done so by my request because I was so upset at having my character assassinated by multiple people.
Up to this post, I have received only one apology, that was in regards to referencing my wife in a joke, but this person later made a statement saying they regret apologizing for any of it. At this point, I do not expect any apology or acceptance of wrong doing for the items above - there has been enough clear evidence that the other parties do not feel they are in the wrong for their actions, and it is even shown when you (Durga) posted this last night:
Durga wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:17 am
Sick of bitxhes shading and not voting, go on, don't call me your strongest scum read and then not vote me. Let's go
How is it okay for you to call other people the same word I called you? I was admonished for it and called (effectively) a bigot, yet it's okay for you to use it yourself? This is hypocrisy and the fact it was even said after the amount of crap I got is jaw-dropping.

Ultimately, the lack of several of us (myself entirely included) to self-police our actions and language is why the games need to be hidden. We are not good people and I don't think it's unfair for the Admins/Mods to want our games hidden because of how we carry ourselves.

Re: Unhide mafia

by President Eden » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:56 pm

Is this the right place for the M62 retrospective? I haven't written it up yet, and with a lot of overlap between M62's roster and the ongoing game, I'm wondering how much I should discuss while I'm still alive. But M62 seems to be a focal point in the decision to hide the game.

I'll make public the position I gave to darg in private during M62 -- I think I would rather the mafia community change its own rules to forbid the behavior that requires games to be hidden than to allow the behavior but hide the game. The biggest driver of growth for the mafia community has been people curiously checking out the forum. The front page advertising makes that very easy, not to mention more convenient for the players. It's a valuable asset to us, so maybe we should be more amenable to changing the way we play to benefit the site administrators. If the behavior is so bad that it needs to be hidden because it's a detriment to the site, maybe it doesn't need to be in the game.

Without writing that retrospective off the cuff right now, and without calling out individual people, I feel I failed as a GM in M62 by not clamping down on noxious behavior -- the type that would get the game hidden -- early enough to head it off. Although Rule 0 would have given me the ability to do it, I was hesitant to do so because traditionally we have given wide latitude to players to say what they want, provided that it advances their win condition. I didn't know if that mentality had changed, and if that were still the cultural norm of the community, I didn't feel it was right of me to impose a different standard on my own power unannounced. Of course, things ended up cascading into such a mess that I think in retrospect no one would have objected to a firmer hand early on to head this off.

I am sad that our games need to be hidden, but I can't really fault administration for coming to that conclusion after M62. I think we should look into changing the rules in a way that makes us able to play unhidden again.

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