Suggest an Awesome Opening!

by **Enriador** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:07 pm

ziran wrote: ↑
Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:28 pm

Enriador wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:44 pm
Germany: Centrifuge Opening. F KIE-BAL, A BER-PRU, A MUN-KIE. You get Holland and convoy the other army to Denmark, giving a solid position on Sweden.
My only critique is that Russia is guaranteed Sweden in 01, and will probably build F StP sc.

Enriador wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:44 pm
Italy: Illyrian Opening. Start as a Lepanto, but move F ION-ADR, F NAP-ION and prepare a convoy to Albania or supported attack on Trieste.
So no builds? Surely one should sneak into Trieste.

Enriador wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:44 pm
Turkey: Syrian Opening. A CON-BUL, F ANK-BLA, A SMY H. Then in Fall, A BUL whatever, F ANK-CON (if Juggernauting) and A SMY-SYR (giving build options in both SMY & ANK).
Ah, so that explains the opening to Syria. You're usually not doing anything else with that army.

1) Usually, when Russia spots a German fleet in the Baltic it means trouble. Russia should expect a bounce in Sweden or a move to BOT; in either case F BOT-BAL is the likely move. Germany however never shoes outright hostility and throws the army back on track to Denmark. Quite a fun opening!

2) There is a build! Italy doesn't start with two fleets after all. By "Start with a Lepanto" I meant "convoy the army to Tunis". But rather than going to EAS, Italy swings north to ADR against Austria for a myriad of options.

3) Yes, that's the thing. Army Smyrna commonly just gets in the way, so why not leave it around to dissuade Italy of Lepantoing, while also being fairly close to Smyrna for Greece-bound convoys or Armenia for anti-Russian intentions?

by **ziran** » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:28 pm

Enriador wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:44 pm
Germany: Centrifuge Opening. F KIE-BAL, A BER-PRU, A MUN-KIE. You get Holland and convoy the other army to Denmark, giving a solid position on Sweden.

My only critique is that Russia is guaranteed Sweden in 01, and will probably build F StP sc.

Enriador wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:44 pm
Italy: Illyrian Opening. Start as a Lepanto, but move F ION-ADR, F NAP-ION and prepare a convoy to Albania or supported attack on Trieste.

So no builds? Surely one should sneak into Trieste.

Enriador wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:44 pm
Turkey: Syrian Opening. A CON-BUL, F ANK-BLA, A SMY H. Then in Fall, A BUL whatever, F ANK-CON (if Juggernauting) and A SMY-SYR (giving build options in both SMY & ANK).

Ah, so that explains the opening to Syria. You're usually not doing anything else with that army.

by **Enriador** » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:44 pm

Austria: Russian Floric Opening. F TRI goes for Albania, A BUD tries Rumania and A VIE gets Galicia.

England: Atlantic Opening. Convoy army to Norway, while F LON goes ENG and then MID for a massive increase in tempo.

France: Vineyard Opening. A MAR-BUR guards from Germany and gets Spain, A PAR-GAS guards Brest and F BRE-MID may convoy the army in Gascony to Portugal.

Germany: Centrifuge Opening. F KIE-BAL, A BER-PRU, A MUN-KIE. You get Holland and convoy the other army to Denmark, giving a solid position on Sweden.

Italy: Illyrian Opening. Start as a Lepanto, but move F ION-ADR, F NAP-ION and prepare a convoy to Albania or supported attack on Trieste.

Russia: Livonian Landing Opening (my invention). A MOS-LVN gets convoyed to Finland, giving you greater leverage on Sweden & the Baltic without scaring England in Norway.

Turkey: Syrian Opening. A CON-BUL, F ANK-BLA, A SMY H. Then in Fall, A BUL whatever, F ANK-CON (if Juggernauting) and A SMY-SYR (giving build options in both SMY & ANK).

by **Carl Tuckerson** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:12 pm

I've seen a sharp uptick in English Channel openers for England, which makes for a very pro-German metagame.

I think the metagame hasn't solved the French problem yet. swordsman called attention to it in his seminal gunboat AAR, and I've seen the obvious English Channel adjustment from England, but as I watch that opening play out, I can't help but think that Germany is the only one benefiting from a Channel opening. I've seen more seven-center Germanys in W02 than I'm used to seeing.

by **BobMcBob** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:43 am

Carl Tuckerson wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:59 am

BobMcBob wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:52 am

Magnetic24 wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:51 am
I was playing and spectating a live gunboat game yesterday. (two different games.) In both occurrences, Germany opted for the Tuckerson opening (Munich->Tyrolia->Piedmont).
I guess this thread has given people some ideas.
We ought to start more threads like this one.

I'll start one after my round robin set is done. I'll probably have a lot to say by then.

In the meantime, "Tuckerson opening" warms my heart. Can we call it the "Tyrolian Tuck"?

Tyrolian Tuck... Has a nice ring to it. Another one of these kinds of threads sounds like a great idea.

Also, I feel like German win/draw rates will temporarily peak soon. And Italians will stop moving to Tyrolia in S01. And more E/G's will form. But but before too long, I feel like a lot of French players are going to begin opening to Burgundy, without expecting a bounce, lowering the effectiveness of the Tyrolian Tuck. But it'll still be fun. (Someone should keep some statistics). And we really should liven up our metas more often. (And I should play Germany sometime soon).

by **Carl Tuckerson** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:59 am

BobMcBob wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:52 am

Magnetic24 wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:51 am
I was playing and spectating a live gunboat game yesterday. (two different games.) In both occurrences, Germany opted for the Tuckerson opening (Munich->Tyrolia->Piedmont).
I guess this thread has given people some ideas.

We ought to start more threads like this one.

I'll start one after my round robin set is done. I'll probably have a lot to say by then.

In the meantime, "Tuckerson opening" warms my heart. Can we call it the "Tyrolian Tuck"?

by **ziran** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:56 am

i recall reading about an opening to syria once. i don't remember what the logic behind the move was.

by **BobMcBob** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:52 am

Magnetic24 wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:51 am
I was playing and spectating a live gunboat game yesterday. (two different games.) In both occurrences, Germany opted for the Tuckerson opening (Munich->Tyrolia->Piedmont).

I guess this thread has given people some ideas.

by **Magnetic24** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:51 am

I was playing and spectating a live gunboat game yesterday. (two different games.) In both occurrences, Germany opted for the Tuckerson opening (Munich->Tyrolia->Piedmont). Although the move to Piedmont did not see Germany taking Mar in '02, in both games Germany was the center leader (and got the solo in one of them.)

Although this is a small sample size, perhaps the Tyrolia move is not so bad after all, even with Italy moving to Piedmont in Spring back to Venice in the Fall.

by **Carl Tuckerson** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:08 am

That is a big improvement. I can sign off on that variation.

by **Claesar** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:02 am

Carl Tuckerson wrote: ↑
Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:42 am
Since I usually play gunboat... no. Lol.

I don't think either of those openings does anything better than normal openings under the same premises. If Italy and Austria can trust each other enough to run those openings, I don't see why you wouldn't just, say, send Venice -> Tyrolia -> Bohemia and play as an extension of Austria's army, so that Austria can send an extra army toward Greece and use its fleet in Aegean Sea as an extension of Italy's navy. Both of those Lepanto variants add more complexity without meaningfully expanding tactical options IMO.

You clearly haven't been reading our Key Lepanto variant thread from about half a year back. Getting a fleet into Aegean in 1901 is definitely better than a regular Lepanto. I've also been doing it in Gunboat (including the 2019 GBT) with some success..

https://www.webdiplomacy.net/contrib/ph ... ?f=3&t=664

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=222952

by **Carl Tuckerson** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:42 am

Since I usually play gunboat... no. Lol.

I don't think either of those openings does anything better than normal openings under the same premises. If Italy and Austria can trust each other enough to run those openings, I don't see why you wouldn't just, say, send Venice -> Tyrolia -> Bohemia and play as an extension of Austria's army, so that Austria can send an extra army toward Greece and use its fleet in Aegean Sea as an extension of Italy's navy. Both of those Lepanto variants add more complexity without meaningfully expanding tactical options IMO.

by **Matticus13** » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:15 am

I had forgotten about this thread... Awesome stuff. Anyone try the Blue Water Lepanto or the Key Lepanto as Austria or Italy?? I definitely want to give it a shot. I will probably have to be Austria... Most of y'all would be chicken

by **Claesar** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:20 am

Claesar wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:53 am

ziran wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am
Conversely, any French players ever open to Pie, with the intention of continuing to Tyr?
No, but I've opened to Pie with the intention of bouncing Italy. When that didn't happen, I kept on trucking. If I remember correctly. I'll try to find an example if I don't forget.

Can't find an example, so it seems I misremembered

by **Carl Tuckerson** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:58 am

ziran wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am
Conversely, any French players ever open to Pie, with the intention of continuing to Tyr?

Good thought, but I'm not as sold on France doing it, for three reasons.

(1) Because of many old articles about Germany opening to Tyrolia as a move to protect Austria (or itself), Germany moving to Tyrolia isn't viewed as innately hostile to Italy and Austria. France moving to Piedmont is much more likely to be viewed that way (although in press games this obviously can be mitigated). The risk of provoking a lame war with Italy is much higher.
(2) The main reason opening to Tyrolia could work is that it's very rare for people to move to Piedmont in A01; if you get into Tyrolia then you're virtually guaranteed to get into Piedmont in the fall. And if you don't get in, then you're still in Munich, capable of doing other things. Meanwhile, unexpected moves to Tyrolia in A01 are far more likely to occur, if Italy decides to pivot against Austria after the first turn (though typically this involves going to Trieste, sometimes it involves Tyrolia instead). There's a higher risk of you bouncing and getting stuck. And unlike Munich, Piedmont is a horrible place to be stuck if you're France, since you've now given up the ghost to Germany and have no ability to force your way in.
(3) France has a much more attractive path to conquering England than Germany does, so it hurts France more to commit to attacking Germany via the Alps than it hurts Germany to "commit" to the same attack, since it's easier for Germany to bail on it and use Tyrolia to influence Austria/Italy if circumstances change.

by **ubercacher16** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:10 am

I've moved to Pie in 1902 and onwards with the intention of outflanking the German land defense. Usually works.

by **Claesar** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:53 am

ziran wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am
Conversely, any French players ever open to Pie, with the intention of continuing to Tyr?

No, but I've opened to Pie with the intention of bouncing Italy. When that didn't happen, I kept on trucking. If I remember correctly. I'll try to find an example if I don't forget.

by **ziran** » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:59 am

Conversely, any French players ever open to Pie, with the intention of continuing to Tyr?

by **BobMcBob** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:45 am

Carl Tuckerson wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:27 pm
All that said, a better continuation probably involves you moving to Tyrolia in S02, after builds. Maybe arrange the bounce in Tyrolia in press, then arrange to get in for the fall; or maybe just hold Munich in spring then move to Tyrolia in the fall. You're still gambling that France doesn't go to Burgundy then Munich, but I think the gamble is much easier to make, because it's hard to see why France would think Munich would be open.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you also move to Burgundy in Spring then move to Tyrolia in the fall? (Presuming of course that you have done any relevant negotiations with Italy). You are of course risking France not moving to Burgundy and you actually getting in, but if a bounce in Burgundy is as likely as you say it is... And you can also gently coerce a bounce out of France through press. Open up negotiations with them, but demand too many things from them, or insult them too much, or "accidentally" let slip that you're going to betray them. That last one could work particularly well, for example:
"I'm going to do the standard opening, moving to Burgundy, Denmark and Kiel, once we've both got our builds, we should be able to start invading France next year."
"Whoops, wrong chat."

If that doesn't convince France to bounce you in Burgundy, I don't know what will. Then you can precede as Carl outlined, with no risk of France taking Munich.

by **Carl Tuckerson** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:27 pm

Magnetic24 wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:09 pm

Carl Tuckerson wrote: ↑
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:04 am
Germany: Open to Ruhr, Denmark, and Tyrolia. If you're in a press game, your army in Tyrolia will get you a lot of favorable attention from virtually everyone, since you're in position to disrupt Austria or Italy. But the main purpose is to send Tyrolia to Piedmont in the fall as the beginning of a concerted invasion of France, building two armies with your builds from Holland and Denmark. You'll be able to put four armies on the French border by invading Belgium, which breaks the common paradigm of France and Germany stalling out and committing a lot of units to mutual defense.
I've personally sworn off the German opening to Tyrolia. Ever since my aunt did it to me as Germany when I played Diplomacy for the first time, I haven't done it. (of course, that's beside the point.)

My question is - what happens if France moves to Burgundy, as so many do? In a no press game, Tyrolia has to move back to Munich, or you risk losing Munich in '01. Even in a press game, France is going to be inclined to move to Burgundy essentially no matter what. England would have to be a terrible player to allow this to happen, and I try to open to Burgundy every game in case of this. Also, regardless of a press or no press game, you need Russia on your side for this strategy to work. Italy is going to be frazzled in the Spring for your move to Tyrolia and you may even be risking a bounce. Austria's obviously not happy either, and you may be artificially forcing an AI.

Other than that, I think your openings are excellent and I will be using them in the future. I've never seen a successful Germany in an opening to Tyrolia from what I can remember, and I'd like to hear how you'd defend it. The move to Piedmont is good, but some serious diplomacy would have to go behind it.

You had family that played Diplomacy with you? Awesome.

RE: the Tyrolean opening. It is somewhat of a shell game. France has a real incentive to read your move to Tyrolia as intending to meddle with Italy or Austria, and not the prelude to an assault on Burgundy. Indeed, if I had to guess, I think most French players who are thinking about the situation would conclude that you will be moving back to Munich in response to their move to Burgundy, since after all you "have" to do it right? In which case, isn't the worst move they could make to go for Munich? It will just bounce, you will take Holland and then be forced into building armies in Kiel and Munich, and France will start a war.
No question, you are gambling that France will be thinking along these lines and not go for Munich. It's a big risk. But if you win the gamble, you will have overwhelming force on Burgundy in the Spring.

All that said, a better continuation probably involves you moving to Tyrolia in S02, after builds. Maybe arrange the bounce in Tyrolia in press, then arrange to get in for the fall; or maybe just hold Munich in spring then move to Tyrolia in the fall. You're still gambling that France doesn't go to Burgundy then Munich, but I think the gamble is much easier to make, because it's hard to see why France would think Munich would be open.

Suggest an Awesome Opening!

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