[Classic] The Mountain Opening

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Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by Enriador » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:03 pm

ziran wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:30 am
at some point, with more games under my belt, i plan to compile a list of games that meet various criteria. here is one of an early f/i*: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

*includes at least two new players and a cd in 1901.
Hmm, isn't that an interesting game? Italy/France had quite the potential - by 1903 France had six centers (BEL, SPA, POR), and so had Italy (TRI, VIE, TUN). Denmark was in Russian hands while Scandinavia became an English playground. France had fleets at ENG and IRI ready to take the English mainland, while Italy held an iron grip on the Balkans and Austria itself.

Russia's weakness and England's power eventually harmed to both Germany and France. France made questionable decisions regarding their defense of Burgundy, and once a German raider gets behind the French lines, well, good luck holding onto it.

@ziran, I sent you a private message.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by ziran » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:30 am

at some point, with more games under my belt, i plan to compile a list of games that meet various criteria. here is one of an early f/i*: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

*includes at least two new players and a cd in 1901.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by Enriador » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:05 am

I just don’t buy into F/I alliance in 01
I cannot blame you at all - it's pure theory. I lack the statistical data to properly corroborate whether the opening is useful or harmful to either side. Just food for thought. :-D

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by ssorenn » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:57 am

‘I also happen to be an established author of Diplomacy opening theory, having articles published in my name by the world's largest Diplomacy zines (Diplomacy World & the Diplomatic Pouch Zine). Besides, I have recently been invited to be the DPouch's Head of the Openings Library while also being an active developer on vDiplomacy.com. Oh, I am also a moderator at the Discord Diplomacy Tournament and variant-maker (some already released and playable right now). :) “

I’d read some of your stuff. I just don’t buy into F/I alliance in 01

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by Enriador » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:54 am

That’s the best part, i don’t need to keep it a secret
Come on, you know you'd just abandon your 17th game after things get tough. :lol:
Perhaps I am paranoid, or stick to conservative predictable openings
Hmm, if you stop and think about A BUR *and* A TYR then you are actually a very attentive player - a good Kaiser is always a little bit paranoid. The real trick is getting the truth out of "Hey, A BUR is not agressive, I just want to play with Belgium" or "Tyrolia is a trick my fella, I will slip to Trieste/Piedmont/Bohemia next season" and similar chit-chat.
we're so used to I/F going their separate ways in 1901 that we don't even imagine the quick Munich punch as a possibility.
I didn't say it before, but now that you mention it I think that's one of the opening's most important pillars: novelty. No one realistically expects it, and leaving your hyper-confident fellow players utterly astonished is a diplomat's joy!
I actually did get caught in a similar pickle as Germany, except it was Russia supporting France into Mun in 1901 from Silesia
Whoosh, that's tough. Did you bounce them in Baltic Sea at least?

"Diplomatic winds" are harsh at times. I recall a specific game in deceased Droidippy (I was Germany) where Italy moved to TYR (and VEN, so I thought a Tyrolian Attack was afoot), France moved to BUR, England to NTH and Russia did its own thing. Fantastically, France and Italy bounced each other in Munich but damn England bounced me in Holland (I got Belgium). I was out by 1906, but at least got a good laugh!

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by noumenal » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:25 am

Enriador wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:41 am
I think I’ve been as high as 4th inGR non-live classic
1) Obvious, but hardly avoidable. A French army in Burgundy and an Italian army in Tyrolia are very common sights, right? But how often do you see Germany wasting both armies with a supported attack on Munich? There is not much in their openings that telegraph their dark intentions to the Kaiser.
I mean, seeing just one of those moves, as Germany, would get my attention a bit and get to talking - "What's the plan with Bur/Tyr"? Seeing both?! Perhaps I am paranoid, or stick to conservative predictable openings (probably one of my main weaknesses) but that would seem to telegraph something to me, as Germany. If it doesn't to most players, then that's probably because we're so used to I/F going their separate ways in 1901 that we don't even imagine the quick Munich punch as a possibility.

I actually did get caught in a similar pickle as Germany, except it was Russia supporting France into Mun in 1901 from Silesia (!) -- I could never have seen that coming. Extremely effective, though. As I recall, I ended up getting no builds and got eliminated in 1903. One of those games where the diplomatic winds just don't go your way.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by ssorenn » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:15 am

“That wouldn't be fair to poor you, you already revealed your master plan. :smirk:


That’s the best part, i don’t need to keep it a secret, you’d be done as France before 04. Just saying.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by Enriador » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:41 am

I think I’ve been as high as 4th inGR non-live classic
With all due respect, the correlation between success in online ELO-based rankings and expertise regarding Diplomacy opening theory is somewhat weak. I am sure you are a good player, but good players are not necessarily the best scholars (and vice-versa) so let's be careful here. :-D
maybe try to be a part of the games you actually play.
I don't know why you mention personal accomplishments in a theoretical discussion about openings between two complete strangers, but if it's relevant for you:

My profile page on webDip (which serves only to see the forums) directly points to my vDiplomacy.com's profile with 98% RR in 37 games (https://vdiplomacy.com/profile.php?userID=7881). You are also free to check my profile on Conspiracy (99% RR in 58 games), my nickname is also "Enriador". (Oh, and you gotta improve that 90% RR of yours my friend! :? )

I also happen to be an established author of Diplomacy opening theory, having articles published in my name by the world's largest Diplomacy zines (Diplomacy World & the Diplomatic Pouch Zine). Besides, I have recently been invited to be the DPouch's Head of the Openings Library while also being an active developer on vDiplomacy.com. Oh, I am also a moderator at the Discord Diplomacy Tournament and variant-maker (some already released and playable right now). :)

None of this makes me superior to you, though (and vice-versa). The important thing is discussing with respect and good arguments - speaking of which, I left some questions for you in my last post, so far still unanswered.
i hope one day we find ourselves locked in this exact position and you support me to Munich
That wouldn't be fair to poor you, you already revealed your master plan. :smirk:
as France I am suspicious about offers to support me into Munich
So am I. Italy has little to gain from it, so it's likely a ruse to bring France into conflict with Germany.
An immediate move on Munich? A little too obvious, and not stable/secure enough.
1) Obvious, but hardly avoidable. A French army in Burgundy and an Italian army in Tyrolia are very common sights, right? But how often do you see Germany wasting both armies with a supported attack on Munich? There is not much in their openings that telegraph their dark intentions to the Kaiser.

2) Munich is not supposed to be a stable center for Italy, under my perspective, and should actually be evacuated as soon as feasible - the center naturally belongs to France. As I said before:
Holding Munich, in any case, is not of essence. It's a quick grab against a very busy power that can hardly afford to launch a punitive expedition against Italy for a good while, as they wrestle with invaders from both west and east.
And here as well:
This is the key thing: **Italy cannot hold on Munich for very long**. It's actually most commonly taken as the **18th Italian cente**r or somewhere along the endgame. **Seeing A BUR S A TYR-MUN as a quick SC grab is for the best** - France will want it anyway, **sooner or later**.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by noumenal » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:33 am

As Italy I never even look at Munich until very, very late in the game when I am looking for opportunities to solo. Even as France I am suspicious about offers to support me into Munich as that is the hardest supply center on the board to secure (often have a 4-way fight over it).

The general idea of an I/F alliance isn't bad, IMO. But it has to be a longer term alliance that can't really manifest itself till about 1903 or so. The ideal diplomatic setup for me is: France joins England to attack Germany (possibly with Russian help), Italy does the Lepanto on Turkey with Austria but then stabs Austria. An immediate move on Munich? A little too obvious, and not stable/secure enough.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by ssorenn » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:32 am

I’d love to see some other high GR rated player weigh in here. I think I’ve been as high as 4th inGR non-live classic. I’m terrible at gunboat which is most of what i play now.
I appreciate your dedication to a new opening but TBH, maybe try to be a part of the games you actually play. @36% RR in 3 games on site- that’s not so good

But your opinion is yours like mine is mine. Best of luck, and i hope one day we find ourselves locked in this exact position and you support me to Munich. Then let’s see what happens then

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by Enriador » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:14 am

ssorenn wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:27 pm
It’s ok. I disagree with the whole premise.
This is your God-given right, no one is angry at you for having your own opinion. I merely wish to understand your critic a bit more. I agreed with some of your points, and found some of your arguments flawed.

Nothing wrong, such is life.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by Enriador » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:13 am

ssorenn wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:24 pm
Umm no. Italy becomes hostile to France and the German is sure going to be hostile(France just aupported Italy to Munich) and England will become opportunistic.
Your reasoning here ("German is sure going to be hostile(France just aupported Italy to Munich") is interesting. Why is Germany "sure going to be hostile" against France but will suddenly trust Italy, the very power who took Munich itself?

Italy will have a hard time pitching innocence to Germany just after closely following "France's plan" in taking MUN. And just like Italy may promise the world to Germany, France can do the very same thing you propose and offer Germany support into both Munich and Belgium if they wish to make amends - how can poor Italy beat these odds?

England may become opportunistic... but the question is, against who? This question is quite complex, and is underlined by many other questions.

Is England in a good position to close Gibraltar before the Italian fleets arrive? Has England's claim to Belgium been respected by Germany (and if France did its work right, it was not)? Has Russia moved A MOS-STP in Spring 1901? Does Russia have F SWE/F BAL? Does Austria have A TRI & F GRE? Does Turkey have F AEG & F SMY?

In other words, there are plenty of contexts where England will probably decide to face its weakened neighbor - Germany - rather than the 5-center France who so far was friendly and demilitarized the English Channel.

Come on, you know Diplomacy is a much more complex game than "Country X is sure going" or "Country Y will do that". :)

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:27 pm

It’s ok. I disagree with the whole premise.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:24 pm

Umm no. Italy becomes hostile to France and the German is sure going to be hostile(France just aupported Italy to Munich) and England will become opportunistic.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by Enriador » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:02 pm

ssorenn wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:47 pm
Great, you’ve stopped the Italian advance, England and Germany gobble you u- your missing the point
I think you are missing the point buddy, might be mutual miscommunication. :?

You just assumed, for some reason, that Italy, England and Germany are all hostile to France. If that's the context you propose, fine, but then no opening or set of moves will save France's ass in any possible case - their elimination is basically assured!

I don't see how such perspective contributes to the opening's discussion, as F vs G/E/I triple alliance is very rare. In the Mountain Opening France didn't exactly explode the board with a weird opening like F BRE-PIC, A MAR-PIE, A PAR-BRE, but made the strong Maginot Opening (F POR, A SPA, A BUR), widely recognized as a very powerful opening, while a neighboring power lost a home center to a third power.

I am confused about why you assume everyone would want French blood. Does the same thing happen (in your opinion) if Italy takes Munich without any support?

An Italian army in Munich is not going to throw England against France - might as well be the opposite as England seeks gains in Holland and Denmark, or Norway and St. Petersburg. After all, Germany is in trouble - England is as likely to let the Kaiser drown as they are to help him.

An Italian stab on France is not easily done and can be repelled by France without any flamboyant tactics required, I hope I explained that properly.

What are we discussing here exactly? What do you propose?

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:47 pm

Great, you’ve stopped the Italian advance, England and Germany gobble you u- your missing the point

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by Enriador » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:34 pm

Where do s this French fleet coming from???
F BRE, F MAR, F POR. F POR was the starting fleet, F BRE and F MAR are supplied from Spain and Portugal. I posted the sequence of moves where the French fleets move to the key defensive positions of MID, GOL and SPA sc in the post just above yours.
Italy will demand that no fleet build in Marseilles
After stabbing France and moving F ION-TUN and A APU-VEN (threatening WES and MAR in 1902)? :eyeroll:

I doubt Italy would be in a moral position to do that after literally choosing to throw the Mountain Opening irreversibly away.
Army Venice is moving to piedmont
Piedmont is a bottleneck. A VEN-PIE can be powerful when France does not suspect of Italian perfidy, but Italy's choice of Fall moves *and* builds (F ROM as you suggest) wouldn't exactly get France by surprise.
diplomacy beteen Italy and Germany needs to be such that Italy apologized and gives back Munich
Indeed - good luck with that. While Germany would likely focus on the bigger threat - France - rather than Italy, don't expect the Kaiser to suddenly turn friends with the power that took its home center and halted their early game ambitions. Germany's own diplomatic focus would be directed on bringing Austria on-board against future Italian plans rather than blindly trust the Pope once again. Remember Austria & Germany both dislike Italy as soon as Spring 1901, thanks to A VEN-TYR.

It may happen, but it's far from easy. Personally, if you want a pro-German anti-French opening, avoid the Mountain Opening. I recommend Dean's opening (http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resour ... attack.htm) if you want to pull that off.
It’s inconsequential what happens to army Munich as italy offers up French Sc for his transgressions.
And what leverage does Italy have over the French centers? From the German point of view, Italy is an opportunist who sought to profit off Germany's strategy, with no units in Piedmont (or anywhere) capable of giving decisive support to German units to recope with the 1901 loss of Munich. You run the risk of the Kaiser calling your apology and requirement of cooperation to be bull's shit.

Also, what happens to A Munich is very consequential for Italy, as they would be very likely to disband an unit if it follows that plan of yours.

An Italian stab on France, steering from the Mountain Opening, is far too risky - Italian units are in the wrong places; Italy has no diplomatic coin to offer to any other power (no fleet in ION, no army in PIE, no army in TYR etc) other than "Hey Germany I am so sorry I stabbed you" and France can see the Italian attack coming a mile away and worse, prepare for that.
Sometimes you need to see the bigger picture. Less skilled players don’t and can’t forgive.
I agree, but in case it wasn't obvious here's another Disclaimer: the Mountain Opening is not designed for begginers. It's an advanced opening supposed to be used in special occasions, like the Centrifuge or the Slingshot Juggernaut.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:07 pm

“ I believe you are overrating this apparent Italian advantage. Twice I proposed how France can take steps to provide a powerful naval defence for 1902, and it shows a French fleet next to WES and TYN with two others also adjacent to WES, and an army in Gascony ready to close the Piedmontese bottleneck from A VEN-PIE. The Mountain Opening fully accounts for a possible French recovery from an Italian stab, but if it fails somewhere I would be most grateful if you explained where it does.”

Where do s this French fleet coming from??? Italy will demand that no fleet build in Marseilles. In spring 02 Italy has west med Tyrr and in fall has GoL. Army Venice is moving to piedmont and diplomacy beteen Italy and Germany needs to be such that Italy apologized and gives back Munich. It’s inconsequential what happens to army Munich as italy offers up French Sc for his transgressions. Sometimes you need to see the bigger picture. Less skilled players don’t and can’t forgive. That’s their learning curve

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by Enriador » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:27 pm

David E. Cohen wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:22 pm
"Bonus points" for E/G or A/T hostilities? For this opening to have a chance at long term success, at least one of those conditions is absolutely necessary. If the four are allied, or even moderately friendly for a significant period, it is four on three and the F/I/R is going to be defeated.
I slightly disagree about them (E v G, A v T) being hostile as "absolutely necessary". An anti-Russian, northern-focused England (doing an Eastern Push) will neither hinder France nor rush in Germany's help. Even if E/G are revealed as partners (assuming French ignorance of the fact), what can be better than making Germany lose Munich?

The opening is also useful in the case where Austria and Turkey are revealed as allies in Spring 1901. If Italy has to go save Russia's ass - and normally it can afford to do so - the extra build from Munich is more than useful to bog down Austria while also having fleet power enough to block Turkey. Context is king!

I believe, however, that E/G being allied in addition to A/T also being allied may be very troublesome indeed, and thankfully the opening is very versatile and can be adapted for that situation in Fall 1901:

France
F MID can guard BRE
A BUR protects the French flank and can interfere with BEL
A MAR can grab SPA and ensure a build

Italy
A TYR can retake a lost VEN or play with Austria over VIE/TRI
A APU can retake a lost VEN or convoy to TUN/ALB/GRE
F ION can take TUN or convoy A APU somewhere else

Ideally, the opening shines best if only one (or none!) of these couples are together. If A/T allied, a 5-center Italy is relevant. If E/G allied, losing Burgundy *and* Munich is a solid blow to Saxons' plans.

Finally, if E/G/T/A all engage in a quadruple alliance, F/I/R are screwed up pretty badly anyway. I suppose one should pay a lot of attention to their Spring 1901 negotiations.
is it really an "extra army" if your original army is defending (but probably losing) a center against a power that is normally not hostile to you?
If you can order Build A Venice in Fall Adjustments 1901, then surely it is! :-D

In Spring 1902:

A VEN-TRI
F NAP-ION
F ION-ADR
A TUN H
A MUN S A BUR-RUH

In Fall 1902:

A VEN S A TUN-TRI
F ADR C A TUN-TRI
F ION C A TUN-TRI
A TUN-TRI
A MUN/SIL/TYR/BOH (deals with Germany/Austria whatsoever)

The Illyrian Opening can involve a convoy to Albania as well, in several different forms. It's the quickest way to cope with the (possible, but far from guaranteed!) loss of Munich. Damn, if Russia went well fresh reinforcements may be arriving from Warsaw.

Holding Munich, in any case, is not of essence. It's a quick grab against a very busy power that can hardly afford to launch a punitive expedition against Italy for a good while, as they wrestle with invaders from both west and east.

The major target, remember, is Austria. Just like the Mountain War.
As far as fleet Tunis, if i know I’m getting Munich I’m not convoying to Tunis. I’m moving army apulia to Venice.
There *is* opportunity for an Italian stab of France here, and I am glad you pointed it out. Fortunately, every Diplomacy alliance (from the Lepanto to the Sealion) suffers from this risk (a stabbing "partner") so hopefully the opening's usefulness stands beyond this weakness. Besides, France can do the following moves after seeing Italy's stab and building two fleets:

F BRE-MID
F MAR-GOL
F POR-SPA sc
A SPA-GAS
A BUR (deals with Munich whatsoever)

Three fleets against three fleets. Good luck attacking France now - if Austria or Turkey guns for you (which they do ~2/3 of the time), you will surely need it!
I’m saying -90% of the time, if France gives Italy Munich, France signed his own death warrant
There is wisdom in your words. If France pulls this off, the President must give very serious consideration in order to determine the opening's potential *and* dangers, which can be many.

Disclaimer: the Mountain Opening is not a new Southern Hedgehog or Danish Blitzkrieg or Lepanto. It's not supposed to be used except in a very specific set of circumnstances.
No matter the scenario, the 3/2 fleets advantage is too hard to pass up
I believe you are overrating this apparent Italian advantage. Twice I proposed how France can take steps to provide a powerful naval defence for 1902, and it shows a French fleet next to WES and TYN with two others also adjacent to WES, and an army in Gascony ready to close the Piedmontese bottleneck from A VEN-PIE. The Mountain Opening fully accounts for a possible French recovery from an Italian stab, but if it fails somewhere I would be most grateful if you explained where it does.
Italy will have 2-3 of the French sc by 03-04. Those units can be dedicated to stop the jugg(or at the very least prolong the Austrian death) until Italy can put enough resources to stop the tide.
Hmm, I will go slightly off-topic here: even with MAR & SPA, Italy would have much more trouble holding down a Juggernaut than you suggest. I mean, Italy has trouble holding a Juggernaut with armies already in the east (from taking any of TRI/VIE/BUD/SER/GRE when going after Austria at start) and normally is wasted away by the game's most explosive alliance. How Italian units bogged down in Iberia can be possibly more useful in this case?

And of course, I dispute Italy would have such a massive advantage over France in first place... unless E/I/G all allied against France, but then no opening can ever save the poor President.
The only reason i see this not working is if Austria decides to attack Italy early.
There are more similar cases actually: a Late Western Triple, a RAT Triple, a Juggernaut facing down an Austria that moved 1901's F TRI-VEN and didn't take GRE), etc. The first two are rare, but the third one is all too common - remember the Juggernaut is the East's most common alliance, and the Southern Hedgehog is Austria's second most popular opening.
Here’s where no ones talked about yet. It’s ones ability to rally support. Every player has different diplomatic skills. I’m quite confident in my ability to make people see what i need them to see.
I once saw a diplomat (on Droidippy, that house of madmen) who managed to give England three goddamn builds in 1901 (France's F BRE C A WAL-BEL, England's F NTH-DEN, F NRG-NWY). With enough of a silver tongue anything is possible, right? :razz:
I guess there one alliance that may make me think twice. A/T. That allows the Turk to get fleets early into med, if run correctly. Also, you don’t see many of those except in higher skill level games. But then again, that alliance will not have shown its head in 01. So point is moot
A/T can certainly be caught by the eye of the expert diplomat - or at the very least suspected. Normally it goes like this:

Austria
A VIE-GAL-GAL/RUM
F TRI-ALB-GRE/F TRI-TRI-ALB
A BUD-SER-(deals with Greece and Rumania whatsoever)

Turkey
A CON-BUL-RUM
F ANK-BLA-BLA/F ANK-BLA-(deals with Sevastopol and Rumania whatsoever)
A SMY-ARM

When Austria races for Galicia/Rumania and Turkey plays to Armenia and Black Sea, while no conflict arises in Greece, only a sleepy player would fail to realize the possibility of A/T allying. And in this case, moving so strongly against France would be a very risky move.

Extra note: Italy's A Munich, as said several times, is unlikely to exist for long. The loss of Munich must be replaced by another supply center as soon as possible, and an Italian stab on France cannot result in another supply center being won.

At best, a stabbing Italy will take GOL/WES and get stuck in the Main Stalemate Line, all thanks to F POR-MID (guarding SPA from F TUN-WES) and A SPA-GAS (guarding Marseilles from A VEN-PIE). Even if England and Germany come down on France in Spring, Italy itself cannot force itself to any French home center and none of the Iberian centers in 1902.

Italy may be forced to disband an unit, cut short its invasion, and see itself away from its natural targets in the Balkans and near a somewhat angry France. Is risking such a terrible situation worth more than simply attacking sweet & nearby Austria, lying just beyond Venice?

Can't wait to hear your thoughts! Italy is my favorite power and discussing it is a delight.

Re: [Classic] The Mountain Opening

by ssorenn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:33 pm

ssorenn wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:04 pm
No matter the scenario, the 3/2 fleets advantage is too hard to pass up. It does not require EG to ally either. EF could have an initial strong relationship but any solid player will see what’s coming and be opportunistic.

England’s main worry will naturally be, Italy to continue to move north. It would not be in Italy’s best Interest to continue the fight against England. Stretched way to far too early. Actually, Italy should return to help the Austrian if he can. Rhis brings up the possibility of seeing a Jugg. Doesn’t change the strategy. Italy will have 2-3 of the French sc by 03-04. Those units can be dedicated to stop the jugg(or at the very least prolong the Austrian death) until Italy can put enough resources to stop the tide.

Italy while the smallest country, have the best resources for defense.

Here’s where no ones talked about yet. It’s ones ability to rally support. Every player has different diplomatic skills. I’m quite confident in my ability to make people see what i need them to see.

The only reason i see this not working is if Austria decides to attack Italy early. Hmm, how often do we see that.
I guess there one alliance that may make me think twice. A/T. That allows the Turk to get fleets early into med, if run correctly. Also, you don’t see many of those except in higher skill level games. But then again, that alliance will not have shown its head in 01. So point is moot

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