NMRs

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Re: NMRs

by jmo1121109 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:09 am

Mercy wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:00 am
Most of the problems mentioned in this thread would be solved completely if WebDip would implement some of the features of vDip.

On vDiplomacy, if a player does not enter orders in one of the first X turns of the game, that player is sent immediately into Civil Disorder and the phase gets an extension, giving time for either that player to come back or for someone else to take over the CD. If after one phase length, a replacement still has not been found, the phase will get an extension again, up to a maximum of Y times. Under standard settings, (X,Y) = (2,1), but one can change these manually.

I know that Oli is quite busy at the moment, but when he isn't, I'd recommend asking him to help implement this feature here, too.
There's a variety of features that vDip has implemented. I'm an admin over on vDiplomacy as well and have weighted on the different new moderator tools and quality of life changes that Oli has made over on vDip. It is not just with variants that vDip serves as a testing site for us, many of the features designed over there are tested out for a while to see how effective they are. Oli has rolled some changes back because they were not widely used in relation to game creation options to prevent NMR's and redesigned them.

I've been keeping a close eye on these for a while. Some of them include:

add mod tool to stop joining games (temporary ban a player)
https://github.com/Sleepcap/vDiplomacy/ ... 035b039c5b

add strict NMR mode:
https://github.com/Sleepcap/vDiplomacy/ ... 9bf24099cc
https://github.com/Sleepcap/vDiplomacy/ ... 9bf24099cc
https://github.com/Sleepcap/vDiplomacy/ ... 9bf24099cc

new player limits
https://github.com/Sleepcap/vDiplomacy/ ... 9bf24099cc

Lock/unlock a game
https://github.com/Sleepcap/vDiplomacy/ ... 035b039c5b
https://github.com/Sleepcap/vDiplomacy/ ... e1d79ed6f5

As well as a couple others which I've not yet been able to narrow down the code changes done for. Not all of them will be used in their entirety, but bits and pieces into a cohesive solution for the problem.

To explain why this isn't a quick process though. vDip's player base is much smaller so even when a tool is successful over there we have to be careful about simply porting it here, as the performance hit on significantly more users is hard to judge. Oli's code also self admittedly sometimes has problems and the vDip code base has thousands of changes from webdip, many around letting them develop variants. So doing code comparisons is a long manual process. There hasn't been a point in the past few years where I'm not keeping an eye on what does or doesn't work over there, or working to narrow down what specific code can be safely migrated over. But there were other development priorities such as implementing the new forum to fix our database scheme issues, making gunboat games truly anonymous, and fixing the last known game adjudication on webdip that needed to come before this work. So it's just been recently that I've been able to focus on this problem.

Specifically for NMR's and CD's the tools listed above are a good starting point but they require some additional vDip only changes such as extended phases, which are quite complex and for various reasons risky to bring over. So I've begun work on modifying the above tools to be brought over.

I finished one set of changes (https://github.com/kestasjk/webDiplomacy/pull/341) I'd been working on testing thoroughly in my test environment just yesterday, but it still needs to be reviewed carefully before it can go live because it involves changing the database on the server which carries risks to all active games so we always err on the side of caution since we've never had a game breaking bug pushed onto the live site and really have no desire to start now. Once that change is live I hope to be able to tie it into CD logic to begin automatically issuing deterrents for people who CD. And it's just 1 part of the overall goal to remove the problem.

Unfortunately with development help being very short, between me, myself, and I these days, these larger scale projects are not as quick as I know many people would like. That said progress is happening and hopefully over the next couple months you'll start seeing some of the changes have some impact on the problem.

All of this is also why I earlier marked this issue as resolved. Because the issue is widely known, I've been working for months to narrow down a set of vDip tools that will get us partway to a solution, while determining what else I need to build to get the rest of the way there.

Re: NMRs

by bo_sox48 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:06 pm

We're just now regaining access to the systems that we need to make updates and we're moving some vDip features over as we speak. There has been a lot of time spent on development over there that we haven't had over here, so there will be more of that in the future for those tools that are compatible.

Re: NMRs

by Mercy » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:00 am

Most of the problems mentioned in this thread would be solved completely if WebDip would implement some of the features of vDip.

On vDiplomacy, if a player does not enter orders in one of the first X turns of the game, that player is sent immediately into Civil Disorder and the phase gets an extension, giving time for either that player to come back or for someone else to take over the CD. If after one phase length, a replacement still has not been found, the phase will get an extension again, up to a maximum of Y times. Under standard settings, (X,Y) = (2,1), but one can change these manually.

I know that Oli is quite busy at the moment, but when he isn't, I'd recommend asking him to help implement this feature here, too.

Re: NMRs

by Deeply_Dippy » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:03 pm

NMR's are part and parcel of the game - even though they are unwanted.

Ideally, everyone would commit to each game that they sign up to and then stick with it, even when it goes bad against them.

But since when did we live in an ideal world?

There are lots of causes of NMRs - most of which are not about people disatisified with their opening exchanges.

Re: NMRs

by Claesar » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:38 am

Foxcastle wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:02 am
...
How many times do you get "hey, my game needs paused" with no game ID or or just a game name that you have to go search for, or with no username? (Maybe it doesn't happen?) A button that sends you all the relevant information is good for mods, too.

How many games get screwed by NMRs because casual players who don't follow the forum don't know they should email the mods? Or don't know the email off the top of their heads, and/or don't go look for it? And sure, I'm willing to bet that emailing the mods is enough work that plenty of people (who would click a button) just let their games flop. If you honestly want players to email you to prevent NMRs, then The Button can make your dreams come true. :-D
Those are some very strong points.

Understandably, people often think the name of the game in question is useful to us. I can usually find out what game they're referring to, unless they're sly enough to email with a different email than registered on their profile..

Re: NMRs

by jmo1121109 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:14 am

Foxcastle wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:02 am
Claesar wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:20 pm
Is it that much more work to send the email manually? ;-)
The benefits are not in saving players effort.

How many times do you get "hey, my game needs paused" with no game ID or or just a game name that you have to go search for, or with no username? (Maybe it doesn't happen?) A button that sends you all the relevant information is good for mods, too.

How many games get screwed by NMRs because casual players who don't follow the forum don't know they should email the mods? Or don't know the email off the top of their heads, and/or don't go look for it? And sure, I'm willing to bet that emailing the mods is enough work that plenty of people (who would click a button) just let their games flop. If you honestly want players to email you to prevent NMRs, then The Button can make your dreams come true. :-D
That's true, I'll have to think on if this is something we can reasonably accomplish.

Re: NMRs

by Foxcastle » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:02 am

Claesar wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:20 pm
Is it that much more work to send the email manually? ;-)
The benefits are not in saving players effort.

How many times do you get "hey, my game needs paused" with no game ID or or just a game name that you have to go search for, or with no username? (Maybe it doesn't happen?) A button that sends you all the relevant information is good for mods, too.

How many games get screwed by NMRs because casual players who don't follow the forum don't know they should email the mods? Or don't know the email off the top of their heads, and/or don't go look for it? And sure, I'm willing to bet that emailing the mods is enough work that plenty of people (who would click a button) just let their games flop. If you honestly want players to email you to prevent NMRs, then The Button can make your dreams come true. :-D

Re: NMRs

by Claesar » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:20 pm

Is it that much more work to send the email manually? ;-)

Re: NMRs

by ssorenn » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:58 pm

RoganJosh wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:23 pm
ssorenn wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:25 pm
That’s actually my point. Emailing mods with a majority for a cxl should be an easy request
Wait - your implementation is that the players emails the mods? I thought you meant that this was gonna be implemented through programming.
While that would be nice, There’s no one to do that before 2021

Re: NMRs

by ssorenn » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:56 pm

Kingdroid wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:31 pm
what ssorenn wants, by making thisn thread, is for all of you to give him attention.

very successful thread.
You must be mentally challenged.

Re: NMRs

by Foxcastle » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:32 pm

There could be a button, like "Pause" or "Draw", that sends an automatic email to mods (with all the relevant info automatically filled in) asking them to pause a game to prevent an NMR.

Re: NMRs

by Kingdroid » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:31 pm

what ssorenn wants, by making thisn thread, is for all of you to give him attention.

very successful thread.

Re: NMRs

by RoganJosh » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:23 pm

ssorenn wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:25 pm
That’s actually my point. Emailing mods with a majority for a cxl should be an easy request
Wait - your implementation is that the players emails the mods? I thought you meant that this was gonna be implemented through programming.

Re: NMRs

by ssorenn » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:25 pm

Durga wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:03 pm
FWIW whenever I email the mods Claesar is always on the job fast

+1 Claesar
That’s actually my point. Emailing mods with a majority for a cxl should be an easy request

Re: NMRs

by Durga » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:03 pm

FWIW whenever I email the mods Claesar is always on the job fast

+1 Claesar

Re: NMRs

by ssorenn » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:20 pm

jmo1121109 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:18 pm
Right what he explained prevents nmrs and isn’t a system that can be easily abused to cancel games
its not about what he explains, its about the availability of the mods

Re: NMRs

by ssorenn » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:19 pm

how can a majority in an anon game abuse cxls

Re: NMRs

by jmo1121109 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:18 pm

Right what he explained prevents nmrs and isn’t a system that can be easily abused to cancel games

Re: NMRs

by ssorenn » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:14 pm

Re: Can a mod cancel a game for an NMR?
#4 Post by Claesar » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:59 am

Players are under no obligation to Cancel after NMRs, though many consider it the right thing to do.

Players can input any orders they like (including a Yorkshire pudding, or All Holds), but NMRs aren't part of the game. That just means someone missed the deadline, which happens far more online than Face to Face.

The mod team would love to help you fight NMRs (and we do), but we can't roll back phases for several reasons. As a team of volunteers with day-time jobs, we also cannot monitor every ongoing game (currently 398).

That's where you come in! If it's close to the deadline and you see 'At least 1 country still needs to enter orders!', you know an NMR is coming! Email [email protected] and we'll prevent it. If we see your email in time, so don't be late. And don't worry about overloading the mods, as way too few people are using this service at the moment.

so, claeser says right here that mods can help

Re: NMRs

by ssorenn » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:13 pm

jmo1121109 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:07 pm
1. You did, and an admin, and every site user.
2. I don’t have access to site funds please email the owners to find out an update on that front.
3. I’m in a game. And I have made and logged the issue to the backlog and have worked with vdip to try out various anti nmr solutions that if they’d worked we would port over and they’ve had limited success, so your claim nothing is being done and nobody cares is wrong
4. If you want it me to take you seriously you can be polite.
i still do care what Bo feels. no tears here. my not caring about Bo's ideas is not an insult. If you believe in participation trophy's that's your problem

having anon gunboat game that have an NMR, and 4 of 7 want it cxl'd before 02, should not be a problem for the mods, after they receive an email

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