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Finished: 01 AM Mon 24 Jan 11 UTC
Private Exclusive
2 days /phase (slow)
Pot: 140 D - Spring, 1913, Finished
Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
Game drawn
23 Jan 11 UTC Another general comment: in 1908 or 1909, when I was at my most powerful extent and had already thrown my full weight after going for a win, I never expected to fight such a determined coalition. I fully expected from my conversations with peterwiggin and spyman that one would stab the other within a short time, and especially for peterwiggin to stab after my northern naval power was eliminated. I also never expected DJEcc24 and Draugnar to betray me. I did honestly plan to ensure their survival, and my moves carefully gaurded the two of them. I was extremely surprised when I saw that they had switched sides to abgemacht, who had only ever asked me to eliminate them. It was clear I had made a monumental miscalculation when I saw that I might actually get eliminated.

I've said a lot. I guess that's because this will be the last game I shall play on this site for a while.
25 Jan 11 UTC cause it seems i can never play a game with you in which you don't beat me i wanted to get you outa the way =P
25 Jan 11 UTC you have played me before i believe though too
25 Jan 11 UTC JECE I kept waiting for that stab from England too. That is why I kept alternating between leaving myself open (in order to foster the alliance with England) and then moving units back (to discourage the stab). With regards to my communication with you, Russia, I was trying to set up a lifeline, in case everything went pearshaped. If you were teetering on the edge of "should I attack Germany now or should I wait and see", I was hoping to nudge you back to "the wait and see" stage.
I was vulnerable in the middle to being crushed, but the only thing I had going for me, is that the respective superpowers of the game (each in their own time, namely Italy, then Russia and then England) were to afraid that the someone else would have more to gain from my downfall. On this occasion I was lucky.
peterwiggin was a VERY determined, very good diplomat. I must give him credit for that. I also found that when it came to do or die time he was excellent tactician. His approach to strategy,as evidenced by the number of times he switched the focus of his attacks also made sure that no one else was going to win, . But on the downside, his flip-flopping meant he was late getting a chance to really advance his position. For example he went he put his army in Norway at the start, and then convoyed back to bel because he decided to play a southern game, only to shortly change focus back to a northern game.That delayed his growth.
I think peterwiggen was very gracious though at the end. I think if he had stabbed me, he could have seen to it that I would be removed from the draw. So thank you England, for letting me live.
Btw the way JECE, I am thinking this is probably my last game too - famous last words I know ;-) But I really am too busy most of the time for diplomacy, especially as the games last so long. I always find that somethings come up which takes my attention away for a couple weeks, and then my games go to shit.
25 Jan 11 UTC DJEcc24: Are you sure? I couldn't find you in any of my listed games. I thought I only knew you from the WebDiplomacy World Cup, where I was the Iberian public press player. You might be confusing me with someone else. Or maybe you found my work in the world cup terrifying, ha ha?
25 Jan 11 UTC This is also from spyman (he PM'd it to me 24 minutes after posting the above):
Btw, I was surprised that you were stabbed by Austria and Turkey too. They pretty much sealed their own death warrants with that move.
Great comeback by the way. You looked like a deadman walking and then you came back to nearly win!
25 Jan 11 UTC This was a game of epic comebacks . . . except for France. He had no chance. Italy, Germany, and I ganged up on him right away, but as soon as he was gone, Italy and Germany stabbed me. At that point, I thought I was done, but some savvy tactics in Scandinavia and a lot of diplomatic legwork somehow turned things around. As JECE pointed out, however, all this took up a lot of time, and I was already behind, and switching from the northern front to attacking Italy didn't help. Then, when Russia got big, Germany and I re-recruited Italy to help us stop Russia.

Now, a few notes on critical junctures and comments made by others.
1. The four-way went through because Italy and I both knew the other would try for the solo, and spyman's erratic play made both of us nervous about him holding a line against the other.
2. That said, spyman's maneuvering back and forth in the north actually paid off. Twice, I tried to set him up for a massive stab to kick-start a solo push, but both times, he made me back off before I could quite pull it off.
3. Turkey and Austria had actually been petitioning me and Germany to make up with Italy and fight Russia for a long time, warning that they were going to help Russia win. I didn't think that Russia could win as long as Germany and I didn't make mistakes, but I also eventually realized that we couldn't eliminate Italy unless he made mistakes!
4. JECE, were you serious about a two-way?
5. I think this game is a good demonstration of my tactical and diplomatic skill but lack of long-term strategy. As JECE pointed out, all that maneuvering was effective in the short term, but in the long-term, it wasted time and prevented me from ever putting together a cogent solo bid.
29 Jan 11 UTC spyman: I actually had no plans to attack you until you seized War in Fall 1907. After you took it, I threw everything I could afford at pushing you back (not everything I had, because I had other concerns to deal with when I was fighting the whole of Europe alone). I never really succeeded, as the status quo after your stab was consistently maintained. Every last season you occupied either War, Vie or Gal. So I was never on the fence about whether to attack you or not. But if that was you impression I guess that explains why you were friendly towards me in our diplomacy but not attacking peterwiggin. Where you really never contemplating an attack on England?

Also, while I was the superpower, I had absolutely no problem with either England or Italy stabbing you. On the contrary, I wished that they would. I knew that I would eventually cave (like I did) if I was forced to fight a united England, Germany and Italy. And the gains England, say, would have gotten from stabbing you would have been offset by me finally being able to set up a stable defensive line in the North as German units withdrew back to their homeland. Gains Italy would have gotten would have probably been limited to Mar and cost Italy few troops to execute, but nevertheless might have left F Ion weak enough for me to strike it.

Your analysis of England is interesting. Honestly, my dealings with England up to when it stabbed me were limited to friendly comments and a commitment on my part neither to get involved in the Northern theater nor lose StP. As such, I really wasn't paying too close attention to what England thought like. In Fall 1907, I expected England to crush Germany. When it didn’t, I knew I was probably going to find myself in a very serious situation. Nevertheless, I held on to the hope that England would pounce on Germany to the end. If peterwiggin was really concerned just about stopping powers in the lead, I think it held on to that notion too strongly. It had great opportunities. Especially after the last season, I never thought peterwiggin would vote for a draw. I seriously though English units would pour southwards in search of an 18th SC. Italy and I probably could have halted it, but it would have been a desperate battle.

Yeah, I came to the conclusion that this site is taking up way to much time a while ago. Even outside the games, the forum is also addicting. I really like playing on this site, but it gets to be very hard at times to keep up, and I definitely need a break. Now that I finally have the opportunity, I’ll take it. I’m still following the World Cup to see how it ends up, but that’s it.
29 Jan 11 UTC peterwiggin: France’s initial diplomacy doomed it. I couldn’t believe it would start in such a suicidal way. It was pretty obvious France would quickly get crushed.

You weren’t in so dire straits as you imagine. You had enough fleets to easily fend off both Germany and Italy. Sure, it wouldn’t have been easy or quick, but you probably would have come to an agreement with them fairly soon – you did come to an agreement with them fairly soon.

I think you’re confusing my comments with spyman’s. I don’t think I ever mentioned the amount of time it took for you to grow.

By the way, you didn’t recruit Italy. Italy demanded that I destroy A-H and Turkey or face war. He joined you because of me, not your diplomacy

On your notes:
1. Yeah, I agree. I’d like to think my diplomacy helped you two come to that conclusion. I don’t really understand why you drew at the end, though. At that point you were in a good position to go for the win, while Italy was not.
2. Well, then I’m glad that my miscalculations weren’t that off after all! You were trying to stab Germany. Honestly, though, I think you were overly cautious in your approach, and that’s saying something. You saw from my announcements that I would move F StP that I am an extremely cautious player. In fact, I’ve never been eliminated from a game.
3. I think you’re referring to about 1907-1908. At this point, I actually had promised A-H and Turkey survivals in exchange for their loyalty to me. If they were leaking that to you, they were really out of it. The chances of them surviving without a Russian victory were nil. And you’re completely wrong about Italy’s ability to defend itself. Iberia was already at you’re mercy, and in the East Italy was about to loose territories (although perhaps this wasn’t public and you thought I would work with Italy, though it should have been known to you if A-H and Turkey were talking with you).
4. Yes! This wasn’t even an honor code sort of thing. I was going to try my best to win so that I could fulfill my promises to A-H and Turkey (all I had to do was move into their SC’s the season I would win), but in all honesty I expected you to have set up a standard SW-NE stalemate line before I could take the 18th SC. With us closing in on Italy, I expected you to exit the Mediterranean and swing north against Germany, while I took care of Italy, perhaps with a bit of your help. Why were you hesitant?
5. Again, you’re not paraphrasing the right guy. Nevertheless, I guess I agree with both of you on that point.
29 Jan 11 UTC JECE:
I didn't go for the win because I was fairly certain that Italy had spa and mar locked up. In another site, where the draw votes aren't public, I would certainly have gone for it. Here, however, when you're the only one not voting draw, it makes your intentions fairly obvious, negating much of my diplomatic abilities.
30 Jan 11 UTC Also, I'm sorry if I misrepresented this, but I didn't so much convince Italy to join me and Germany as he convinced us to join him!
30 Jan 11 UTC A little correction to what I said: I was thinking of picking up Italy as well on the way to victory, if I ever got that far. That would have been a little crazy to deal with, ha ha.

peterwiggin: By keeping A-H and Turkey alive, I sort of gave away my intentions; but that didn't stop me from going for it. :-) Of course, that also put me in a little bit of a predicament down the road, ha ha.
30 Jan 11 UTC You never had much of a chance of winning either unless Italy, Germany, and I kept fighting amongst ourselves. I guess you're more willing to go for a win that counts on the opposition not putting aside their differences to stop you, whereas I have perhaps a bit too much faith in everybody else's abilities to stop solos.
30 Jan 11 UTC But I could have ended up with a 2-way. I definitely did not expect such a cohesive opposition. I expected you to help me, at least. And I also thought that if I was pushed back and forced into a draw, I could just draw. It would have been much easier to eliminate A-H and Turkey if they would have gone with my plan as well, instead of having me hunt them down.
31 Jan 11 UTC JECE, there was one stage of the game that surprised me. I was expecting you to align with Italy, somewhere around the time England and I attacked Italy.
31 Jan 11 UTC Btw with regards to Italy. That is the great regret of the game for me. I had a triple alliance with Italy and Austria, especially Italy. We could have capitalized greatly. My first regret is that, relatively early in the game (just before England and I simultaneously stabbed each other) that I did not stab England. I tried to convince Italy tha the time had come, but Italy thought it was too early. I should have gone ahead knowing that Italy would probably join in anyway. After that we still had a half-decent opportunity but my ordinary play matched against Englands VERY good moves, and then followed by my misorders (GOD DAMMIT!) ruined everything. At that stage I felt I had to switch sides an ally with England. By that stage I really felt I needed to commit to an England/Germany alliance. Which given the circumstances by that stage proved the best option available. If England had been a lesser player and a weaker diplomat, I might have persevered with the alliance with Italy. But I knew that had I continued with Italy, that his advantage would have been too great (especially as Italy was a skillful player). I don't know if Abe has been reading the EOGs, but that was the reason I turned on him, much to my regret.
31 Jan 11 UTC Damn! Why aren't there new-message notifications for finished games. This will take forever to get through.
31 Jan 11 UTC I have to say, this was one of the most intense games I've ever played.

So, Germany, what was with the years of radio silence after you stabbed me. That was infinitely more infuriating than the stab itself.
04 Feb 11 UTC Abe, here is my explanation.
1. Things got really hectic in real life. So much that it was hard for me to play this game at one point. For example when I got home from work at 11pm each night (after an early start in the morning) I was too exhausted to think about this game. And thus I stopped enjoying it. On top of that my spare time was spent looking for a new house to live in, and then followed by the moving and waiting for the internet to be connected.
2. I found my self the fulcrum in the power balance, but with no decent options myself. It was like this. I allied with both you and England at the start. Then I stabbed England (and he me). Then due to blunders England made a come back, and the only way I could be sure of surviving was if I switched sides. But once we turned on you the power balance shifted again, and really my best option would have been to switch back to allying with you - I think - it was really hard to tell. So, in my mind, I kept flip-flopping. To make things easier for me, I just decided to pick a side and stick with it. And it just so happened that it was England. He did a good job of convincing me he would be a loyal ally. And indeed he returned Denmark to me. At that point, I perhaps should have switched sides again and worked with you, but I just didn't have the heart. And I knew that if I started talking to you, that you would probably do a good job of making me see reason, and perhaps switch again. But I just didn't have the mental energy at the time.
Sorry if that sounds lame. Eventually things settled down and I started enjoying the game. And we did start talking again. I swear I am not usually that sort of player. I like negotiating.
Anyway whatever I chose. I guess it worked somewhat because I shared in the draw. My regret is that had I not blundered and we had destroyed England (and had PW played just a little worse) that I would have been in a power position myself. Alas.
04 Feb 11 UTC heh fair enough : )
peterwiggin (15095 D Mod (S))
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 35 D
10 supply-centers, 10 units
abgemacht (840 D (G))
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 35 D
8 supply-centers, 8 units
spyman (424 D (G))
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 35 D
8 supply-centers, 8 units
JECE (1322 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 35 D
8 supply-centers, 7 units
acmac10 (120 D (B))
Defeated. Bet: 20 D
DJEcc24 (246 D)
Defeated. Bet: 20 D
Draugnar (0 D X)
Defeated. Bet: 20 D
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