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Finished: 09 PM Tue 20 Oct 20 UTC
A New Game -2
2 days /phase
Pot: 35 D - Spring, 1912, Finished
Classic, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
18 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1902: I seriously hope everyone's OK, especially Middleton (playing as Italy).
18 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1902: HI all, new Italy here
27 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: 3 big boys on the map settle for a draw instead of trying for a solo. Great game!
27 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: There’s an online candy land out there too if you want something with no strategy
27 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: Is there really? Where'd you find that game?
27 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: That sounds like sour grapes to me
27 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: Attack the idea, don’t attack the person, carebear
28 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: Oh jeez not this shit again.
28 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: (Person with no response)
28 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: I'll just be happy when you're not in the final draw, and I'll leave it at that.
28 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1904: (Person still with no response)
28 Sep 20 UTC Spring, 1905: Italy, why so spicy? You joined the game late, gave it a solid effort, I don’t understand the hostility.
28 Sep 20 UTC Spring, 1905: Why do people get upset when stabbed in this game?

It's part of the game...
28 Sep 20 UTC Spring, 1905: I like to operate on the "one big lie" theory. Sometimes I never employ it. Sometimes, like with you, France, I don't even ever get to tell you the truth.
29 Sep 20 UTC Spring, 1905: Hey, it's part of the game, so even though I want to win, I don't mind that I've almost lost too.
30 Sep 20 UTC Spring, 1905: Lol just a little trolling don’t get maf
30 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1905: Trolling? I don't know about that... perhaps you are, but some people are upset when you stab them in this game...
30 Sep 20 UTC Autumn, 1905: Dip can get emotional, this much is true.
01 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1905: Weekend whiskey and boredom during quarantine can sometimes lead to global press that would not normally be sent ;)
01 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1905: Italy, how'd you get whiskey to you during this war? Are you having the English send you Scotch?
01 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1905: Lmao
01 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1905: Probably the damn Americans.
01 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1905: Alright Italy, fess up... what kind of whiskey/whisky was it?
01 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1905: Blame the Americans - bourbon. Rumor is it was smuggled through Lisbon and across the border prior to the fall of Spain.
01 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1905: And of course the French abetted that.
02 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1905: Was it a good bourbon at least?
05 Oct 20 UTC Spring, 1906: GameMaster: Game was extended due to at least 1 member failing to enter orders and having an excused missed turn available. This has un-readied all orders.
06 Oct 20 UTC Spring, 1906: GameMaster: Game was extended due to at least 1 member failing to enter orders and having an excused missed turn available. This has un-readied all orders.
06 Oct 20 UTC Spring, 1906: New Austria here guys, lets carry on
08 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1906: Wonder if England's line is still "Anyone but Italy!"
08 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1906: The telegrams are open...
16 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1908: Omg....
18 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1911: THEY PAINTED THE WHOLE MAP
18 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1911: In pink and brown jeeeez what a revolting map..

And a revolting outcome which I'm starting to see more and more often on this site.
18 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1911: To be fair, you weren't exactly playing for the best result either.
18 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1911: I played for a draw until you took Rumania, well done on that by the way, I see your extra build was really worthwile. And in draw size scoring ffs, don't dot people for nothing.
The fact you bought their 'lets do a three way draw where you have 6 and we are in double digits' routine is damning in itself.

You chose to eliminate me for a draw, so I chose to play for a survival in a solo where my stabber would receive no points, and would maybe learn the danger of not well thought off stabs.
Its a desperado tactic, I prefer activity, and creating a good position for someone else in return for survival is imo better than sitting there support holding myself hopelessly or going into civil disorder.

In short - after you stabbed me, my survival is the best result for me.
How you didn't see my reaction coming is beyond me.

However, what I aimed for didnt happen because Hansel and Grettel there have decided to join hips and tie themselves to one another with a proverbial umilical chord - eliminate everyone else and congratulate themselves on the greatness of their moral authority.
Shame those morals include eliminating five players without giving a second thought about the postulates of this brilliant game Diplomacy is.
18 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1911: Imagine damning people for dotting you in a diplomacy game xd
18 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1911: Er, what happened? Are people being upset about being stabbed in this game? I don't know why that keeps happening on this website when that's part of the game...
18 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1911: Did I damn you? I dont see words 'damn you' written in the above message. What I see is an expression 'damning in itself' - there is an object doing the damning, not my person.
Leave the sentence alone and look at the bigger picture, there is never a progress made in discussions when one party isolates statements.

I'm not upset about being stabbed in a game which was never mine to win, or mine at all. Maybe I sound upset because I'm opinionated? No, the desperado is a perfectly reasonable response to a sight of immediate elimination. And my criticism of Turkey is factually sound, the proof is in the pudding.

I'm upset by the perversion of the outcome, an outcome borne out of motivations ideologically foreign to me; an outcome which meant a clearly won game has become an ugly looking forgettable draw.
18 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1911: 1. Some people take this game WAY too seriously.
2. I've been playing since 1978, FTF with friends, FTF at Dip tournaments, including WDCs, tons of online play.
3. Bullying and soapbox yelling is a part of play, certainly. I've never let it bother me. Some players seem to rely upon it, though.
4. Turkey was a new player, correct? Perhaps forming trust relationships should be the key for working with allies, right? Seems you failed in that.
5. Germany and my relationship was cemented from the start. We'll have more comment on that later, but we took great pains to reassure one another that we held common interests.

I suggest ya'll check out a little game theory on trust. It might help your play.
18 Oct 20 UTC Cemented from the start.
You said it all there.

And no, its not my failure of diplomacy that made Turkey take Rumania, the only improvement I could make is to tell Turkey immediately what I will do if he does stab me. But that could be interpreted as being overly aggressive so there's an argument not to say it explicitly.
Every player is responsible for their moves in the end.

It was not the failure of Italian French or Russian diplomacy that made you eliminate them - you haven't even gave their diplomacy a chance !
Because - cemented from the start.
18 Oct 20 UTC Yeah, I thought Austria was about to attack me cuz he moved to Aegean. I even told him beforehand I would freak out if he did that... Sadly, it appears that the only voice he likes to hear is his own.

Oh well, it's not like anything any of us did mattered anyway
18 Oct 20 UTC I'm set for draw. It's only a matter of time before this one is over, so here are my thoughts, not that I expect ANYONE but mtidwell82 to care.

Germany and I developed a significant rapport about everything from COVID-19 to Diplomacy tactics and theory. In short, we got to know one another. And the two-way draw was 100% their idea. I've played Dip for long enough to discount it whenever another players suggests it. It's almost always a red herring meant to draw one out of position for a stab. That's how I approached it. However, our tactical union really paid off in numerous ways, especially in countering Italian defense of the Med. It was after I received Spain that I really started taking the two-way draw seriously. Towards the end of the game Germany flat out stated to me that they were disengaging, and if I took the 18th center it would be a hollow victory. I agree with that in my head, my advance was entirely the result of German cooperation in Spain and southern France. Without that assistance I would have been stalemated and the draw would have been five - AEGIT.

It was a reverse prisoner's dilemma, and from what I've seen on this site, very few get that. I like to play by the "one big lie" theory. I never had to lie to Germany. We were in agreement of the tactics and we maximized our position regardless of who gained. That sort of cooperation is rare. DAMNED RARE, and I've played in thousands of Dip games of all types, in all forms, on various websites and in person. Stabbing Germany would have been a travesty. I'm very proud of this result, the rest of you can grumble all you want.


There were no, I repeat, NO VALUABLE OFFERS from the remaining players. Germany was such as valuable partner that it would have been tough to beat. But none of you tried. No one tried to engage in extended Diplomacy with me regarding Germany. Most of the approaches were about how "Germany's going to solo if you don't stop him" which, in retrospect, were laughable. None you had a clue about our relationship or the level of trust and camaraderie we obtained. It made your warnings ring hollow.

A better approach would have been to find common objectives.

You see, there are two games in Diplomacy. The tactical game which is what moves are available and what the most advantageous moves might be. Obtaining the objective of occupying centers. Obtaining position to force centers. That's the tactical game. Gunboat is the closest you can get to pure tactical play but even in gunboat games there is communication.

The other game being played is the strategic game. The strategic game is how you communicate to other players and it involves both finding what motivates them as well as some sales - convincing others to move in certain ways that might not be 100% in their favor. The strategic play informs the tactical. You see, Germany's and my rapport COMPLETELY INFORMED the tactical play in this game. That almost NEVER happens. Public press games are about as close as you can get to pure strategic play on the internet. The penalty for being a jackass or lying in public press games is severe. Your reputation for honesty is all you have...

I get the impression from the forums on WebDip that the strategic play is completely undersold. In FTF play the strategic play DOMINATES the gameplay. How you interact with others, their body language, their tone, either betray or confirm their moves. In FTF tournament play it's even worse. I've learned to decouple my emotions from game play. Few things annoy me other than illogical tactics and wanton disregard for game play. There are always more games to be played.

If you've read this far, congrats. I applaud mtidwell82 for his game play and for the terrific press. I shall miss our regular conversations. I'm hoping we meet again.
18 Oct 20 UTC Let me say this - I was 100% skeptical that the relationship with Germany would work, especially after I opened to the English Channel. I knew that I was on thin ice, diplomatically.
18 Oct 20 UTC I'm happy for your success in creating such a rapport and well done on that.
Shame though one of you didn't go for the win as you would surely respect each other even then if your relationship is so solid. After all, this is only a game, so instead of taking it way to seriously, one could win and continue the cammaraderie.

Congratulations on achieving what you've set out to do.

@Turkey - you should have confronted me about the Aegean after I moved there, I am overwhelmed by a number of ongoing games I have now and can't keep track of every detail especially when its strategically irrelevant, Aegean would never stab you because I'd gain nothing, I couldn't even build after taking something - it would make absolutely no sense.
Like Rumania.

The problem with these preconcieved draws is that one can't break them by creating inbalance, if you can't break.them by bringing someone on the door of victory, what else do? What tool is there to be used to create intricacies in such a case?
When you decided the outcome from the start, what good does playing with 5 other
Boot up a cooperative multiplayer and play against bots seriously....
5 other people want to play as well. Ok some.weren't here from the start, but you get my point.

No effort and endeavour could change the position of others if you have in fact decided on a two-way draw in 1901.
18 Oct 20 UTC There was something to do but the last Austria before you was an utter moron and decided to play gunboat / suicide himself into Turkey for no reason all game. Once it was clear England and Germany were going to win (or Germany would solo) the southern three should’ve formed a joint stalemate line and forced a 5 way draw. Old Austria was just incompetent. That is responsible for the outcome more than any trust building exercises or failure to go for a solo or whatnot.
18 Oct 20 UTC I can't account for 'ol Kaiser.
I did what I could to influence the game. At least I've sped it up so you me and Insaner wouldn't have to play two weeks just to get this ending :P
18 Oct 20 UTC Thanks all. PigInZen, it was an absolute pleasure, you are a master and this site is lucky to have somebody with such history and knowledge of the game. A two-way draw was never assured. It took an intense amount of diplomacy between England and I to make that happen and, yes, the inability of Italy/Austria/Turkey to rally themselves gave us the opening we needed. So we were all participants in the outcome, nothing was inevitable and that’s why it feels (and looks) so awesome at the end of it.
18 Oct 20 UTC @England it's all well and good but Germany actually threw the win away to bring you into the draw.

@Austria you could have gambled that Germany wouldn't attack Budapest and take Bulgaria with Serbia, backfill Serbia with Bud and get a build. That would bring me down to 3 centers with Germany certain to take Sevastopol in the next year. From there you could have argued that it was less trouble to eliminate me and keep you in the draw. It seemed like you were talking to Germany and you expressed fear about me stabbing you... so I assumed you would act out of that fear and stabbed you. Turned out I was wrong and you were actually telling the truth.
19 Oct 20 UTC Wow you're seeing ghosts. With Germany on 12 in Vienna Tyrolia Galicia I'd have to be alarmingly high to go that route.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

PigInZen (187 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 18 D
17 supply-centers, 17 units
mtidwell82 (100 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 18 D
17 supply-centers, 17 units
DrugTito (915 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Aristocrat (708 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
hthefourth (415 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Petrus (92 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Insaner (12 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Civil Disorders
Vader2648 (100 D)Austria (Spring, 1906) with 6 centres.
seekernf6 (100 D)Russia (Spring, 1902) with 5 centres.
Middleton (100 D)Italy (Autumn, 1902) with 4 centres.
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